Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-14-2011, 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Interesting. This would mean that previous DPS calculations still undershot the actual damage output in practice.
While FAW apparently has 100% accuracy (and no crits according to the combat log parser), beam arrays without FAW seem to be in the 97%-100% range iirc.
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# 12
04-14-2011, 02:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom
While FAW apparently has 100% accuracy (and no crits according to the combat log parser), beam arrays without FAW seem to be in the 97%-100% range iirc.
My experience as well.. When fighting a ship that uses FAW in a 1v1, I only take damage slightly faster than usual.. Its only when facing 3-4-5 of them that I melt even before Im fully decloaked.

FAW might have some sort of hidden accuracy bonus.. Perhaps because it was hard to use prior to the first "fix" on it..

Edit:

Dassem posted some parser data, that is interesting:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem
The whole EPS thing is a bit of a mystery.... here is some parser data collected by O13...

Single target, 2km:
No FAW, No EPS: 3081 DPS
No FAW, 4x EPS: 3116 DPS
FAW, No EPS: 3237 DPS
FAW, 4x EPS: 3653 DPS

Single target, 5.5 km
No FAW, 4x EPS: 2414 DPS
FAW, no EPS: 2615 DPS
FAW, 4x EPS: 2643 DPS

TWO TARGETS at 5.5 km
FAW, No EPS: 6972 DPS
FAW, 4x EPS: 6414 DPS -- (Tested both over 30 times and using EPS consoles seemed to lower damage at this range).

Given the number of tests done, I'd say something is fishy about EPS....
Interesting that you see a damage bonus of 160% when shooting at just 1 more target.

No wonder multiple ships running FAW rips through everything.. 5 guys shooting FAW have damage matching 12-13+ people.
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# 13
04-14-2011, 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
I've never tested it (I'm not a numbers guy) but it always felt very accurate. If this is the case, maybe the ACC was boosted because it is such a complicated skill to use?
I lol'ed. Does this mean FAW is broken?:p
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# 14
04-14-2011, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I lol'ed. Does this mean FAW is broken?:p
I think he meant "used to be"

The original FAW, while having bogus bonuses, was everything but "easy" to use when used as a single target DPS.. Particulary on cruisers sporting arrays, but DBB escorts wasnt a walk in the park either.
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# 15
04-14-2011, 07:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
I think he meant "used to be"

The original FAW, while having bogus bonuses, was everything but "easy" to use when used as a single target DPS.. Particulary on cruisers sporting arrays, but DBB escorts wasnt a walk in the park either.
My mistake, I though SteveHale was speaking of the current FAW when he said , " so complicated to use."
I am well aware of how difficult it was to Single-shot it against opponents in pvp, having died to it in the past many times.
At least the new FAW keeps that symmetry going, as I have died to it as well, even though it has changed. :p

I'm still of the mind that the new FAW needs to be countered not by changing it ( ok maybe reduce the 100% strikes) but by boosting other skills to help defend against it possibly.
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# 16
04-14-2011, 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I'm still of the mind that the new FAW needs to be countered not by changing it ( ok maybe reduce the 100% strikes) but by boosting other skills to help defend against it possibly.
/signed make SS a map wide skill.

While you are it make AF more efficient against beams only because for those of you that think it is a good counter against BFaW last night I was hit with AF3 6 times in a CnH and the DoT was ridiculously low I mean I was at 85% hull by the time I destroyed the ship that applied it. I am an escort running cannons. It does more damage to an escort because they fire more often.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-14-2011, 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
My mistake, I though SteveHale was speaking of the current FAW when he said , " so complicated to use."
I am well aware of how difficult it was to Single-shot it against opponents in pvp, having died to it in the past many times.
At least the new FAW keeps that symmetry going, as I have died to it as well, even though it has changed. :p

I'm still of the mind that the new FAW needs to be countered not by changing it ( ok maybe reduce the 100% strikes) but by boosting other skills to help defend against it possibly.
Then you need to improve cannons as well.. Currently arrays outperform the choice DPS weapons (DC and DHC) by quite a margin, when we're talking groupfights.
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# 18
04-14-2011, 09:12 AM
I actualy read part of this thread, last night, and went off to test it myslef, To be perfectly honest, I had a sneaking suspicion that the OP was correct.

In short term testing, the findings of the OP did stand up. However, on long term testing, FaW will miss, not much but will miss. I then tested just beams (no FaW and no BO), short and long term again on NPCs and v other players and got the same results. It seems beams, themselves, have an inherent accuracy built in and that's where these test results are coming from.

There were several on from the 12th tac division and we all started a discussion on FaW, again in TS. This culminated in a private match of 3 v 3. 1 sci ship/ 2 escorts v 2 beam boats (1 set up for primary healing and my boat set up for DPS) and 1 escort. The match ended in a 15 to 9, they won. The high DPS on 1 of the escorts, in the other team, was over 700K while the sci ship healed for 1.2 mil. Our healing "beam-boat" did 1.3 mil healing and my crusier went up to 640K healing and they still won. DPS seemed to be the factor, however the fights seemed to last longer which was a lot more fun than just 1-shot kills anyway and tended to leave room for more group tactics.

It seems that escorts with a sci in the group, in the 12th anyway, have figured out how to overcome FaW to no end. They targeted me, when ever I was close since I was the "big DPS FaW boat", putting me more on defense and droped my DPS numbers from my usual 450-500K down to 380K. Most of them had scramble and saved it for when the beam boats used FaW and we tended to kill off ourselves with really no way to stop hitting members of our own team. I have to admit that these tactics and counters was/is very effective against FaW and beam boats in general. I didn't have sci team on my list of powers last night, in favor of another tanking skill, but after that, I have it now. That might let me kill off 1 scramble, but with multi ships having it, it would only be a short stop-gap measure, but 1 I felt was necessary and worth giving up some tank to get.
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# 19
04-14-2011, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
I actualy read part of this thread, last night, and went off to test it myslef, To be perfectly honest, I had a sneaking suspicion that the OP was correct.

In short term testing, the findings of the OP did stand up. However, on long term testing, FaW will miss, not much but will miss. I then tested just beams (no FaW and no BO), short and long term again on NPCs and v other players and got the same results. It seems beams, themselves, have an inherent accuracy built in and that's where these test results are coming from.

There were several on from the 12th tac division and we all started a discussion on FaW, again in TS. This culminated in a private match of 3 v 3. 1 sci ship/ 2 escorts v 2 beam boats (1 set up for primary healing and my boat set up for DPS) and 1 escort. The match ended in a 15 to 9, they won. The high DPS on 1 of the escorts, in the other team, was over 700K while the sci ship healed for 1.2 mil. Our healing "beam-boat" did 1.3 mil healing and my crusier went up to 640K healing and they still won. DPS seemed to be the factor, however the fights seemed to last longer which was a lot more fun than just 1-shot kills anyway and tended to leave room for more group tactics.

It seems that escorts with a sci in the group, in the 12th anyway, have figured out how to overcome FaW to no end. They targeted me, when ever I was close since I was the "big DPS FaW boat", putting me more on defense and droped my DPS numbers from my usual 450-500K down to 380K. Most of them had scramble and saved it for when the beam boats used FaW and we tended to kill off ourselves with really no way to stop hitting members of our own team. I have to admit that these tactics and counters was/is very effective against FaW and beam boats in general. I didn't have sci team on my list of powers last night, in favor of another tanking skill, but after that, I have it now. That might let me kill off 1 scramble, but with multi ships having it, it would only be a short stop-gap measure, but 1 I felt was necessary and worth giving up some tank to get.
While your testing seems sound it does little to to dispel the myth FaW is fine because of the scale of it. A total of 32 total beams spread across 3 targets is lets say 11 strikes on targets which is not too much more than a regular Beamboat. BFaW gets progressively OP'd the more ships have it equipped. I was in a CnH last night where there was a 10 man fed ball with 7 ships spamming fire at will everything with in 10 KM was getting smoked. A 3 v 2 is inaccurate and I hope you understand how the skill scales to OP'dness

While SS is great to counter now it just makes another broken skill a legitmate skill. Now I am seeing matches where when I am not be FaWked up I am scrambled more than an egg and would need more copies of ST then I could reasonably use.
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# 20
04-14-2011, 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Then you need to improve cannons as well.. Currently arrays outperform the choice DPS weapons (DC and DHC) by quite a margin, when we're talking groupfights.
Beams as a whole or Beams coupled with FAW?

If beams as a whole then thats news to me as last I checked this was not the case, DHC's still did more up front damage while beams are better overtime, considering a vessel is defended well enough to live for an extended period of time.

If Beams coupled with FAW then raising cannons up in performance would only insight riot among the strictly beams users whom will want beams buffed leading to FAW being even more effective.

Before raising cannon damage to match what beams may be doing, I would look at increasing the firing rates first for all cannon types. Possibly the cannons can be better if they are just able to fire faster.
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