Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
04-20-2011, 12:34 AM
I really do not see how grinding in a Player created mission is any different than grinding that Cryptic has written into the game. Is it really that different from Defend the Sectors, with the exception of the player created ones possibly being more exciting?

How many points do you really get over the same amount of time vs Defend the Sectors with it's mission wrap points? Is there a way to kill 1000 Devidians without killing 1000 Devidians? I do not understand the righteous fury that has resulted from these missions. I personally would never make one because I do like story, but I would rather a mission tell me it is a grind before I play it, now they are going to be hidden with a "story" wrapped in it or worse PRIVATE. Some people play this game solely to blow stuff up. Why can't they be left alone?. What is the real harm in these missions? They have affected me 0%, and I am actively playing foundry missions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
04-20-2011, 01:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WishStone
We want the Foundry to be used for users to create missions. Set a scenario, create the world anew for yourself. The tool was not created to allow players to level up easier, to have a quicker way to gather Accolades, or similar. If your mission sets this as a goal in any form, we may take action. Please do not create missions that are geared towards boosting of any kind.
Thank you, WishStone, for this explicit statement of what Cryptic intends (and does not intend) for the Foundry.

And to anyone wanting something more specific - they can't, they really can't. If they say "no more than 100 X", there will be twenty "Kill 100 X" missions tomorrow, and twenty more the day after that, and so on. Or 99 X, or whatever.

I happen to think the original statement above is quite sufficiently clear to anyone who is old enough to legally play this game and not looking for a way to weasel out of/around it. If you honestly don't have enough moral and/or common sense to have an idea where the line is without having it spelled out for you... well, I wonder how you function in society.

To anyone upset that the prospect of an alternative, actually enjoyable track for KDF leveling has been snatched away - I am confident that there are or will be missions that give rewards commensurate with the official Fed-side content, breaking up the hated monotony. What you will not be getting is a faster or easier track than that. If you really are absolutely lost without some sort of guide, use the official Fed content as your exemplar, and you probably will not go far wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
04-20-2011, 01:45 AM
I didn't even realize the fighter grind missions were used to abuse leveling, somehow I was under the impression they were created to get certain accolades on a whim. Stupid me.

On a personal note, most people don't even realize how much easier kill accolades have become over the last months. Mission replay eliminated the need to preplan your kill accolades. Map reset timers went from 15 minutes to 5 and then finally to almost instantly.

If you want to take a peek at how difficult it was in the start I suggest a replay of Ghost Ship, make sure to stop with one Devidian left to kill, because killing the last would advance the mission to a part where you need to drop and reobtain the mission, then beam out, wait 5 minutes for the fun of it and beam back in. Oh joy.

On the other hand it's the nature of the beast that people are lazy, if there is a way they can bend over and get things done without having to lift a hand, they'll do. Especially if a sweet carrot like that loot bag for the upcoming daily is dangling in front of them. Turn on the loot compressor!

---snip---

So this is what is going to happen:
- Because people want their candy (emblems and lootbag) cryptic is forced to pull 'hello world / grinder' missions.
- People continue to complain how unfair that is.
- To put an end to that discussion cryptic will enforce a much stricter rule of pulling missions / revoking publishing privileges than they actually planed in the first place.
- People cry and some innocent bystanders are ran over.

---snip---

So if you want them to pull a lot broader scale of missions please continue.
And if you don't believe my predictions are accurate I assume you haven't followed the discussion about necrothreads.

Enjoy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
04-20-2011, 06:01 AM
Okay this is hard to figure out... I need some clarification.

A mission where it's designed for your ship to explode and kill enemies is obviously bannable, and I have no issue with that.

My question is, If I make a tactical combat map, placing mobs and trying to take advantage of natural camoflage, the terrain and trigggers etc, to give players a testing ground for ground builds or a similar space map, is this going to remove my foundry rights?

I planned on making some light story elements, but having it more of a fun thing to do with some friends to test things out.

It was sort of a gorn hiding in the jungle tactical patrol thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
04-20-2011, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennjahn View Post
Here's the problem, any mob we create in-game apart from animal mobs w/ physical attacks are ones that have kills and damage tied to them from the accolade system, so by your own rules we can't use them.
If you take the time to read what WS actually said, you will see that he is saying it is an exploit that designs a mission to let you do those things quicker than in the normal missions, not that has then in it at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerhelm View Post
This system was in testing for MONTHS.
And it still is, hence the beta tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
What about people that want to get their character to endgame to do their VA PvP quickly?
Like I said before, if all you care about is rushing to end game, then the Foundry isnt for you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
04-20-2011, 07:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heezdedjim
You can't actually be this dense. What I want; and what people on the K side want even more, is something to do while leveling up a new toon besides playing the same three explore templates another 1,200 times, or repeating the same featured episodes for the eleventeenth time through.

Many people hoped Foundry would provide that. A single daily of 189 points does next to nothing for someone trying to level up a new toon without taking a year to do it, especially if it takes an hour to get the same reward they can get in five minutes by doing one of the regular dailies. So if they want to progress, they're right back to grinding those explores rather than playing through new, interesting missions for SP rewards proportional to their time invested.

If Cryptic can figure out a way to attach the standard, level proportionate SP rewards to each Foundry mission, where the mission involves the same play time and effort as one of the normal patrol or explore length templates, THEN they would really have something. The daily isn't that; and it isn't even close to that. So we're right back to the Foundry, because the missions carry basically no SP rewards, being irrelevant to the problem of filling the yawning content gap that is the first 50 levels of this game.

Comprende?
It is a shame you lack the ability to have a conversation with insulting people, but I do have some good news for you none the less:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salami_Inferno
Missions:
Foundry Daily
  • Increased the numeric reward scale of the daily
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=212075

So now the amount of mission xp scales to your level.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
04-20-2011, 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
It is a shame you lack the ability to have a conversation with insulting people ...
That sort of comment isn't really much better than what you're claiming is being done, and you are often speaking abrasively to people in your responses, which is also just as unhelpful at times.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
So now the amount of mission xp scales to your level.
The amount of XP *increased* with that patch. If it scaled with your level, it did that before and always did with the daily.

Either way, the discussion is quickly veering away from the topic of what this thread was and seems to be quickly degrading in discussion.

If you want to have discussions on whether or not the daily is worth it, there is already a thread where the Devs are receiving/giving feedback on the matter, here: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=211614
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
04-20-2011, 07:57 AM
So here are a couple of my thoughts;

WARNING highly-opinionated Wall-of-Text incoming...

1) Assuming that people find a way to create some sort of grind missions, well camoflaged or not, AND that other players take advantage of that, who, exactly, is getting hurt?

The low-level CS-created missions are, in many cases, great missions. However, once you have done them a dozen times (rather through mission re-play or by leveling multiple toons), they absolutely do become tedious.

For some players, having a means of advancing more quickly through the slowest, most plodding part of leveling, it could be less of an intentional breaking the rules and more of a relief. So they are not getting hurt.

Players who are power leveling with the express intention of getting to end-game for some reason other than wanting to avoid the low-level grind, AND have never played the story-portions of the game; remind me, who are they hurting besides themselves?

In either case, how does this really affect any other player? We do not have open PvP where over-powered high-levels can victimize the low-levels. We do not (currently) have leaderboards, so there is no artificial inflation of status, and there is no other direct competition between players in the game. So who really gets hurt if there is a fast-track to end-game?

Now I am absolutely NOT suggesting that people should find ways to break the rules. Quite the contrary, I am asking why is Cryptic worried about the foundry being used as an alternate way to grind? Why does there need to be a rule to break here at all?

There are certainly people who have more time to play than others. For those people, grinding for hours and hours in DSE, PvP, Exploration, and through mission replay, while tedious, is at least possible. I know folks personally, who have 40+ hours per week to play if they want to--and some do.

This is not considered breaking the rules even though they will ultimately level an alt much more quickly (in terms of days in game) then would someone like myself who has more like 5-6 hours per week at best.

If there is a legitimate means for those with less time available to play to advance their toons, why take it away? Who, again, is actually getting hurt here?

2) In terms of rewards, I am VERY glad CS chose not to allow authors to add their own choice of item rewards to their missions. Intentionally placeing high-end rare or even unique items into missions simply to get them all in one shot would clearly be a true exploit. However, it is still possible with sufficient mobs to get some reasonable drops (at least level appropriate ones), through a Foundry mission. I like that. Playing a mission in-game now, at higher levels and getting a battery or a commodity for a reward after a long difficult battle falls rather flat.

In general, the sheer number of drops in foundry-made mob missions means a chance of getting something that might be useful--or at least worth selling to venders.

I have read some concerns that these drops could be a problem. To whom? People can craft items that are worth far more in the exchange. Granted, one must either grind anomalies or spend energy credits to do it, but still, what is the difference between one grind and another? Other than the time involved I suppose...

And Energy Credits? I have read quite a few threads on these forums about how there needs to be more ways to spend EC in-game. Apparently there are lots of multi-millionaires several times over looking for stuff to spend money on.

I for one am not one of them. I am a casual player, who generally takes months to level a toon to end-game (1st character I leveled to VA took about 8 months, and I only have one other toon at VA). I have NEVER had more EC then I knew what to do with. In fact, most of the time I have spent in-game fairly broke (in comparison) because I do not have the time to grind endlessly through mission replay or by other means, and I am not a PvP junkie. I also do not play the Exchange as a money-making mini game--because my time to play is so limited and I want to actually play STO.

The current wisdom seems to be that removing potential EC gains from the foundry would be helpful. I don't see it. If I am going to play a mission I want several things from that experience; I want good enjoyable content, I want to be able to level, I want to be able to claim my rewards, and I want to have a good time doing it.

While the foundry might be the ultimate tool for fans of the ST universe to create the missions they want to play--and I think it can be just that--let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater and get rid of the rewards for playing the missions. ANY type of mission.

Philosphically, I agree that the best reward could be getting a treat by playing a well-crafted UGC mission. But if that were the only reason to play STO, then why have mission rewards for ANY content. The answer, to me anyway, is that it grants a sense of accomplishment when you get the bright-and-shiney, the EC, the accolade, or whatever other reward used to improve your character and advance in the game.

----------------------------------

I don't know, I came into the discussion late, and by the time I found out about these exploit missions something was already being done about them, so I have not seen the "Damage" being done myself.

What I want out of the Foundry is a chance to see what others within the community can come up with to add diverse and engaging content for me to play. I don't want to spend my time playing boring repetitive grindy missions. I also want to be able to get rewards that are commiserate with the time I put into playing.

The way the conversation is going, I fear that a knee-jerk response could result in the removal of rewards of any kind in the Foundry. I don't want that.

I also think that people want a variety of things from their experience in-game. There are plenty of players with MUCH better-equipped toons than mine, simply because they have the time to grind that I do not. I have never begrudged them this, I have never cried foul because someone else is a better player, or has more experience, or likes to spend their time doing a particular type of gaming (for example devoted PvPers, or those that grind the low-levels by instance-farming DSEs). It's not how I choose to spend my time in STO, but it certainly does not hurt me.

So if people want to spend their time making and playing poorly written foundry-missions (or even well written ones) that are designed to maximize the rewards for playing in a particular mission, why would I judge that?

I don't think that folks are going to stop writing good stories in their UGC, are going to stop being creative with the tools available, or discontinue their efforts to make the best missions possible in the foundry. Even if their were absolutely NO reward system involved. However, I would have to stop playing foundry missions if they don't pay out in some manner, because I simply do not have the time to play without some in-game benefit beyond story-telling.

I would rather not have to choose between playing great new stories and grinding. I also do not want to get bombarded with sub-par power-level missions in the foundry while looking for good stuff to do.

My suggestion then? Instead of getting rid of rewards in foundry missions (if in-fact this is the direction this could be going, and I fear it may be), and instead of imposing rules that really don't hurt anyone but those who are chooseing to play bad missions, make it possible to create grindy stuff for those that like that kind of thing, allow them to be labeled as such, and do not allow them to be ranked at all.

This way, the "Top Rated" missions will be the enjoyable, well written, and worthwhile story-based foundry missions we have already seen in fair numbers. While the power-leveling stuff can be kept in the basement and out of my mission list.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
04-20-2011, 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiTataki View Post
That sort of comment isn't really much better than what you're claiming is being done,
Hello Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
04-20-2011, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Courage_Wolf
Hello Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.
Isn't it interesting how that can be applied to you, which is applied to me, which is applied to nagus? The commentary isn't neccessary, and my pointing it out was to make it clear that doing so isn't really helping, and just further pulling away from the point.

But since I apparently need to ACTIVELY say so, then I am; this isn't neccessary.
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