Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 How about this?
05-03-2011, 09:29 AM
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...21#post3519621 For a little background.


We all know that "new FaW" is causing some problems within PVP gameplay. There are still MANY people who consider the Klingon faction and escorts, in general, to be OP with their "spike damage". The EFF engine NERF? However, in each of these instances, there are people who want to keep what's there now or see other problems that need to be "fixed" 1st. Some have even stated they were leaving STO due to some of these, or have left due to past CHANGES/NERFs. PVE players end up being affected via our never ending quest for "balance", most of which don't even come to the forums to see there even is a problem. They just play the game and find something they liked CHANGED/NERFED via a patch. Rage/quit becomes a factor. So, how do we "fix" the problems without affecting the sub base, Cryptic profits, and the funds necessary for continued development for the content/additions that we all would like to see?

I have played another game, off and on for about 7 years, that may have somewhat an answer to this. How about a 25% DAMAGE REDUCTION TO PVP gameplay, ONLY? SOE tried that in SWG and the NERF calls seemed to die out while it was instituted. Almost to the minute that they removed it, the NERF calls came back in full force. While I can be extreemly crticle of SOE Austin, I can also see what worked for the betterment of the game as a whole.

New FaW would only be 75% as devestating as it is now. FAW 5 man "fed balls" end up being 75% of what they are now. Escort/klingon "spike damage" would only be 75% as damaging as it is now. Healing, snare, root, etc would stay EXACTLY the same as it is now in PVP, just if it includes damage, that gets lowered by 25% also. What this would end up resulting in (as I've already seen it happen), was and is;

1. Group tactics would become even more important as it would require group co-ordination to take some1 out effectively and quickly.

2. NOTHING ends up OP in the damage dept. NO 1 shot, 1 straffing run kills (from a single player) and allows the other group more time to respond.

3. NO PVE players get affected. Therefore, all damage is the same in PVE content as it is today. Their game doesn't CHANGE 1 bit.

4. Pretty much NOTHING would end up being considered OP as, depending on who you talk to, it is today. No where near as many NERF calls. No where near as many dev calls for a NERF we didn't even know that there was a problem in. (EFF engine)

5. Not many "Star Players" would be as prevelant as they are today. "Star groups" would still retain their titles.

6. New players to PVP might have a little bit more of a chance than they do today and that can only be a good thing as more PVP players = more PVP going on.

7. Since PVP gameplay is instanced, this should be an easy development CHANGE for Cryptic to accomplish. Just make the PVP instances at 75% DPS power.

I've seen this work before.

I plan to be playing this game for some years and I make this proposal, 1st to the PVP community, with no other agenda than I'd like to see this game continue and have the chance in the market that it deserves. Something like this, or some other variation of it, (depending on what you all think) should get rid of most of the NERF calls, the contention within the PVP community itself, and we all can get back to the instances and our perfered gameplay. (Making players go boom) Might have us all in game a bit more and off the forums, too.

The only downside that I've seen of this, is that combat can be a little more "drawn out". However, personaly, I could consider that a plus also. Giving some1 a touch more time to use all the keybinds, counters, heals, etc (buttons) in this game might make PVP even more interesting and more dependant on co-ordination. Duels would be affected (1 v 1), however, I've seen many calls to make this more of an MMORPG (group play) since STO launched.

We should get a consensus of the PVP community before submitting a proposal such as this, or any for that matter, before submitting a request to Crptic to "make it so". I ask that the PVP community actualy consider ALL the ramifications before making a "knee-jerk" reaction or trying to just perserve their considered damage "OPness".

Red, I'm really interested in what you think of this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
05-03-2011, 09:35 AM
I think the problem would be the game code. I know the code allows the on off of powers based on instance or map but I do not think their is a big enough difference between PvE maps and PvP maps that would not make things very buggy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
05-03-2011, 09:48 AM
Your idea = to much to implement .. reject
C-store crap = easy to implement .. moar
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
05-03-2011, 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
I think the problem would be the game code. I know the code allows the on off of powers based on instance or map but I do not think their is a big enough difference between PvE maps and PvP maps that would not make things very buggy.
Probably only a dev can answer this question. Maybe we can ask a dev to stop by and tell us, 1st, if something like this is even possible before we have a long discussion on the possibilty.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
05-03-2011, 09:57 AM
I fear it would not change anything as those players whom have perfected thier craft at PvP will still be on top of the charts and those whom feel they are being robbed of thier ability to compete will still complain, now with only 25% less power.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
05-03-2011, 10:03 AM
I'm concerned that this only makes PVP that much less accessible.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
05-03-2011, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I fear it would not change anything as those players whom have perfected thier craft at PvP will still be on top of the charts and those whom feel they are being robbed of thier ability to compete will still complain, now with only 25% less power.
I see your point here. However, I'm actualy trying not to affect the well "balanced" groups that already use co-ordination and tactics for the "win". They would probably see little effect after a CHANGE such as this.

What might be most affected are the groups that rely on a single DPS power to come in and "faceroll" the win. Cryptic could "up" a power (such as new FaW) without affecting the entire balance of current PVP (as long as they don't go nuts with any certain 1 of them).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
05-03-2011, 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
Probably only a dev can answer this question. Maybe we can ask a dev to stop by and tell us, 1st, if something like this is even possible before we have a long discussion on the possibilty.
From what i could gather from the chat in OPvP last night with Jheinig and the issues with cloak being bugged I think it would be the same if not more with weapon powers. The cloak bug will require major work on cryptics end they have to decompile the code on every map to fix the cloak bug. I see something similar to make PvP and PvE skill act the same but do less damage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
05-03-2011, 10:15 AM
I find it very hard to believe that Cryptic at this point in time has the capability to start running, and maintaining, duplicates of abilities and items. Given the supposed difficulty of fixing something like cloaking, just from a technological stand point I can't see this being pulled off effectively.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
05-03-2011, 10:17 AM
First of all: I don't think you have understood why New Faw™ is a problem. It is not so much because it does too much damage on an absolute level, but because its relative damage in comparison to other damage skills like CRF makes all other damage skills outside of super-spikes rather pointless. The top PVP fleets do not dislike New Faw™ because they cannot heal through the damage, they can, but because it turns PVP into a boring beam cruiser fest. Your -25% dps suggestion does exactly nothing to remedy the situation. In fact it might even make New Faw™ mandatory for breaking through decent cross-healing, because healing in this game is already very strong and New Faw™ might be the only thing that can build enough pressure to score a kill.
The main reason New Faw™ is unbalanced is not because it overwhelms healing, but because it is twice as good as any other skill that improves (non-spike) damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
So, how do we "fix" the problems without affecting the sub base, Cryptic profits, and the funds necessary for continued development for the content/additions that we all would like to see?
Vrey true. Any solution has to be nearly cost-neutral for Cryptic. But since it cannot be that difficult to put 5 spawn points on a map and call it an arena map, we have proof that Cryptic doesn't even do cost-neutral improvements to PVP. Therefore nothing you or anyone else suggest is ever going to happen. Sad, but true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
I have played another game, off and on for about 7 years, that may have somewhat an answer to this. How about a 25% DAMAGE REDUCTION TO PVP gameplay, ONLY? SOE tried that in SWG and the NERF calls seemed to die out while it was instituted. Almost to the minute that they removed it, the NERF calls came back in full force. While I can be extreemly crticle of SOE Austin, I can also see what worked for the betterment of the game as a whole.

New FaW would only be 75% as devestating as it is now. FAW 5 man "fed balls" end up being 75% of what they are now. Escort/klingon "spike damage" would only be 75% as damaging as it is now. Healing, snare, root, etc would stay EXACTLY the same as it is now in PVP, just if it includes damage, that gets lowered by 25% also. What this would end up resulting in (as I've already seen it happen), was and is;

1. Group tactics would become even more important as it would require group co-ordination to take some1 out effectively and quickly.
So the fact that players don't want to queue up because they are afraid to meet premades will be fixed by making group play even more important? Brilliant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
2. NOTHING ends up OP in the damage dept. NO 1 shot, 1 straffing run kills (from a single player) and allows the other group more time to respond.

4. Pretty much NOTHING would end up being considered OP as, depending on who you talk to, it is today. No where near as many NERF calls. No where near as many dev calls for a NERF we didn't even know that there was a problem in. (EFF engine)
OP doesn't only mean that the damage-healing ratio is off, but it can also refer to an imbalance in comparison to other skills of the same "type", i.e. damage skills that do much more damage than other damage skills. Nerfing base damage doesn't fix any imbalance among the damage skills.

It is entirely possible to have interesting matches in a New Faw™ environment with everyone using it. But as we have witnessed, a lot of players do not want to live in a Brave New Faw World™. It takes a lot of skill and variety out of the game. Modifying base damage levels does not change this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
6. New players to PVP might have a little bit more of a chance than they do today and that can only be a good thing as more PVP players = more PVP going on.
Why do new players have a better chance? Because the lower damage levels give them a couple more seconds to live? You forget that the new players will also have lower damage and therefore won't be able to dent the shields of the experienced players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
The only downside that I've seen of this, is that combat can be a little more "drawn out". However, personaly, I could consider that a plus also. Giving some1 a touch more time to use all the keybinds, counters, heals, etc (buttons) in this game might make PVP even more interesting and more dependant on co-ordination.
Slower PVP? There are two reasons that this is not a good idea:
1) Premade vs premade matches are already very long (or very one-sided). Some players might remember the one KT match that took like 4 hours.
2) Cryptic wants faster gameplay. Ground PVP is already very fast in comparison to space and nevertheless one of Cryptic's goals with the ground revamp is faster PVP.

And why would requiring more coordination possibly fix PVP? Currently PUGs are not working well enough together to outheal the damage of one single escort taking on an entire team. Lower damage might lead to a situation where this one escort won't be able to DPS down an entire team, but it certainly won't improve coordination in the slightest.
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