Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
05-20-2011, 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
This effects (and hurts) Scis a horribly disproportionate amount more than anyone else. A Fleet Escort/Defiant-R (for example) wouldn't even notice this change whereas Scis would have to undergo huge changes to their tactics. Scis would then be subject to 2 power drains (Weapons and Aux) whereas others would only really be bothered by Weapons - and Scis are already hugely power hungry.
Another issue is skill point allocation. Sci skills don't have any secondary effects everyone could benefit from unlike engineer and tac skills. This makes Sci's the most SP intensive class (in addition to the previously mentioned power requirements). Look at what it takes in SP to max CPB & Aux Permormance (boosting both Aux power and some skills) with the CPB giving no secondary benefits.

This would also benefit those ships w/a high number of device slots more as they allow for a variety of batteries and other devices to boost a ship's energy resources.

If you'd make adjustments for the above as well it wouldn't be such a massive one sided change.

FYI, targeting Aux subsystem w/a Boff helps as would out manuvering the Sci ship. Many single target sci skills require being w/in a 90 degree frontal arc (including Tach Beam). If you run into a Sci heavy team you could switch to beams and keep out of the 5km range the 360 AoE skills have.

Edit:

Forgot to mention TAC consoles can be setup to boost all weapons (eg all phaser consoles will boost all energy weapon damage). With sci skills having different tracks neither the ship's deflector nor the consoles can be setup to max all sci skills choices have to be made. Therefore, the basic logical premise isn't apples to apples as Sci, Tac, and Engineer skills have differing effectiveness of SP investments, console selection, and ship deflector selection.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
05-20-2011, 09:18 PM
Such a horrible idea, where to begin?

Okay, lets start with your sig. What science powers let you simultaneously kill three people in one hit? None, of course. Science powers don't kill people, weapons do, some that don't even use weapon power. There is no question science powers can help weapons do their job, but science on its own will not and cannot do that job.

Furthermore, tactical powers are far more guilty of stacking and overlap than science powers, especially with tactical captains. The most often stacked powers in a science playstyle are healing powers. Why? To counter the massive stacking DPS from tactical powers, despite that evil weapon drain. Yet a ship can't stack more than 3 heals that rely on aux, because that is all there is.

Offensively, what are you worried about? Most science powers that would work great together have shared cooldowns. Most science powers have hard counters too that completely nullifies the effects.

Yet weapon drain never actually concerns me. Maybe its because my ships all run an EPS console. I mix beams and cannons, including BO on my escorts, and you know, I've never considered the weapon drain a legitimate concern. It is gone quickly enough. On an attack run I'm likely to hit about 5-6 tactical powers, none of which require weapon power to operate, compared to the defender's three maximum aux healing powers.

But then aux powers aren't weapons at all. They are not constantly firing. They are all fire and forget. Aux is completely and utterly useless if you aren't ready to use an aux power. Don't forget this. If I sit in aux the whole time, I gain absolutely nothing until I use an aux-based power. Weapons are rarely not firing, by contrast. How often does an escort switch to high aux power? You can be sure a science ship will switch between aux and weapons a lot more often.

Think about that. If a science ship fires off 6 aux-based powers, they are going to be sitting on their hands for the next 30-45s waiting on the cooldowns. They can put their aux down to 25 for that time if they want to. Weapons are constantly cycling. So what is the real purpose of aux drain?

The offensive science powers typically have hard counters. Why should my tractor beam continuously drain my power if my target is running polarize hull? Why wouldn't I just turn the silly thing off? What is the balance of draining someone's power and having no effect? Weapon drain comes right back, and can even power right through a target's defenses, or you can switch targets in a couple seconds. That science power? You wait 45s to switch targets.

Worst of all, even if aux impacted and weakened science powers, who does that actually hurt the most? What do you think is chained and overlapped more, tractor beams and particle bursts, or heals? And who has more aux power to play with anyway? I know my science ship sits at 70+ aux with the setting at 25. An escort won't break 50, and may struggle to even hit 40 if they ignored aux performance.

Balancing it all would be an absolute nightmare.


To sum it up, its a terrible idea for the sheer workload it would create, the defensive balance issues it would create, the completely false supposition that science powers don't already have some serious drawbacks to stacking as well as hard counters, the overlooking of both more common tactical stacking and the uselessness of aux power in general, and finally the very questionable effect of the suggestion on science heavy ships versus other ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
05-20-2011, 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
Such a horrible idea, where to begin?

Okay, lets start with your sig. What science powers let you simultaneously kill three people in one hit? None, of course.
You havn't flown with little sam in awhile.....

Aux Bat.... CPB 3... Shockwave 1
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
05-20-2011, 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
You havn't flown with little sam in awhile.....

Aux Bat.... CPB 3... Shockwave 1

That situation wouldn't even be affected by the original suggestion, surprise surprise. Shockwave's stun isn't affected by aux power, and hitting an aux battery first is an obvious way to circumvent any proposed drain, and of course following it up with a non-power using tricobalt, well, who cares about power settings?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
05-20-2011, 10:54 PM
It's much simpler and sensible to just do away with weapon power drain.

An energy weapon's "rest" period should represent it's power recharge time. Warp cores should have plenty of juice to allow all of the ship's weapons to fire at 100% output. Do you think that the Defiant's forward cannons fired at different intensity from each other? NO! That would be shoddy engineering to equip a ship with a power source that couldn't fire weapons at 100% designed output. :p

Engine power doesn't drain when you move, shield power doesn't drop when they're on or when you take a hit (yes health does of course), and aux doesn't budge when you fire off umpteen sci powers. So weapon power should get equal treatment! Stand up for Weapon Power rights today! :p

Healing is OP! We need Moar Pew Pew!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
05-20-2011, 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock_Monster View Post
It's much simpler and sensible to just do away with weapon power drain.

An energy weapon's "rest" period should represent it's power recharge time. Warp cores should have plenty of juice to allow all of the ship's weapons to fire at 100% output. Do you think that the Defiant's forward cannons fired at different intensity from each other? NO! That would be shoddy engineering to equip a ship with a power source that couldn't fire weapons at 100% designed output. :p

Engine power doesn't drain when you move, shield power doesn't drop when they're on or when you take a hit (yes health does of course), and aux doesn't budge when you fire off umpteen sci powers. So weapon power should get equal treatment! Stand up for Weapon Power rights today! :p

Healing is OP! We need Moar Pew Pew!
This would also make the "running below 100 weapons makes your weapons useless" point a little less moot. Since if you run at, say, 75 power boosted to 90, by the time you fire your weapons, they're firing at... maybe 40 weapons power? Which a shuttle can heal off, lol
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
05-20-2011, 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock_Monster View Post
Healing is OP! We need Moar Pew Pew!
Yes, so people without healing die even quicker and moan about the pew pew, so healing is made even more OP ...oh where oh where did I hear that one...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
05-21-2011, 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalnar
Yes, so people without healing die even quicker and moan about the pew pew, so healing is made even more OP ...oh where oh where did I hear that one...
Who doesn't have healing?

Besides, I think the main difference with no weapon drain would be in the longer fights. Yes an unbuffed target would die a second or two faster, which hardly makes a difference. But it would really help in those longer fights with ships shrugging of damage with multiple rotating heal and resist stacking cycles.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
05-21-2011, 12:52 AM
Ya know, while I can see the point to adding in such a Power drain on Systems..

It just doesn't feel like it's the same as Weapon drain..

Maybe if the following were implimented to comphensate I might be ok with it..

Tactical Ships (Escorts): Aux drain x2, Weapon drain reduced by half it's current values.

Engineering Ships (Cruisers): Aux Drain standard, Weapon Drain Standard Drain

Science ships (Science/Deep Space Science): Aux Drain Half proposed drain, Weapon drain x2

Drain example could simply be Each science skill beyond the first drains aux at a rate similar to Weapons, but related to the Rank of the power, and then the Cool down would come into the figures to get a total aux drain. (For example, a power like Photonic Officer, if used after say Hazard emitters, would drain 5 Aux, but if Hazard Emitters is used second, it might drain 7 Aux because it has a shorter cooldown then Photonic officer)

Hybrid ships:
If a more Science based ship, it would get an Aux Reduction With Weapon drain being standard
If a more Cruiser ship (Vor'quv for example) It would be Standard Drain effects.
If a more Escort ship (BoP or MVAM for example), it would be the Escort Weapon drain with Standard Aux drain.

What that would mean is the Science ships would then be more about their science skills then Weapon damage from energy weapons. But they could still use their weapons for Energy weapon damage, but withan effect on their Aux skills since they'd need both high aux and high Weapon power.

How ever, then this means that Engineering type powers become almost more powerful in the same respect that Science skills are currently since they don't drain anything.. (not that there's really a system beyond Aux that could do anything in that respect) And they have powers to actually boost other systems. So.. Eh...

There's alot of ways it could probobly be handled.. But I almost feel that nothing short of a complete game Overhaul, one where they re-tool the entire combat system, and the way Ships function in space, would give the balance between Tactical weapons, and Engineering Skills and Science skills that you probobly are looking for at this time.

I mean I'm some what for it depending on how fun the change would be, or even how noticable it would be. Balance is nice in games. Especially if they've been imbalanced for a long time previously. Provided they don't become so balanced they aren't fun any more. Keep that in mind before you ask for something that might make the game less fun, but more balanced.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
05-21-2011, 01:04 AM
I am not sure how this is fair. Do weapons have 45+ seconds before they can fire again?

Maybe if all Science Powers just had an on-/off switch. I want to Tractor you? I activate Tractor Beam and keep you tractored as long as I want - with a penalty to my Auxillary Power, so if I felt more like healing, it might be better to swtich the Tractor Beam off before I activate Transfer Shield Strength. Or I could have both on Plus perhaps activating the Tachyon Beam to add to my DPS? With some more drain, of course.
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