Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Can Beams get some love?
06-22-2011, 03:49 PM
OK, I have been playing from the start and all of the changes.... can beam weapons have some what of a chance against shields? Five beams at 125 power don't even scratch end game shields, yet a escort can rip ships shields and half the hull of a cruiser. I'm sorry but as it stands a escort has like 80% of the defense and 1000% times the bust damage of a cruiser. Designers....

Weren't beam weapons suppose to be good on shields and weak on hulls?
Can engineers get some form of offensive capacity rather than EWP, and other weak powers?
Why can an escort tank three ships and still get kills?

I could go on, but I'm not seeing the assault part of my assault cruiser.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
06-22-2011, 03:54 PM
Maybe they'll buff Fire at will.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
06-22-2011, 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admneal View Post
OK, I have been playing from the start and all of the changes.... can beam weapons have some what of a chance against shields? Five beams at 125 power don't even scratch end game shields, yet a escort can rip ships shields and half the hull of a cruiser. I'm sorry but as it stands a escort has like 80% of the defense and 1000% times the bust damage of a cruiser. Designers....

Weren't beam weapons suppose to be good on shields and weak on hulls?
Can engineers get some form of offensive capacity rather than EWP, and other weak powers?
Why can an escort tank three ships and still get kills?

I could go on, but I'm not seeing the assault part of my assault cruiser.
First, you should go up to 6-8 beams, 125 weapons power can handle it. Make sure you are fully specced in whatever ONE energy weapon type you use. Make sure you are using beam or energy type tactical consoles in all 3 slots. These things will help you maximize your beam damage outside of bridge officer powers.

Second, if cruisers had anywhere near the useful damage or burst potential of an escort, there would be zero reason to fly escorts. And cruisers have wayyyy more defensive ability than an escort. If you want to do massive damage, fly an escort. If you want to heal, do moderate damage over time, or be a zombie, fly a cruiser.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
06-22-2011, 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceroid View Post
First, you should go up to 6-8 beams, 125 weapons power can handle it. Make sure you are fully specced in whatever ONE energy weapon type you use. Make sure you are using beam or energy type tactical consoles in all 3 slots. These things will help you maximize your beam damage outside of bridge officer powers.

Second, if cruisers had anywhere near the useful damage or burst potential of an escort, there would be zero reason to fly escorts. And cruisers have wayyyy more defensive ability than an escort. If you want to do massive damage, fly an escort. If you want to heal, do moderate damage over time, or be a zombie, fly a cruiser.
Once again, I'm not a newbie.... cruisers have slightly more hull and shields (which is nominal vs the damage output of this game).... healing just buys more time. I'm not suggesting cruisers damage = escorts, but it shouldn't be a game of extremes. A escort should not be able to tank 3 cruisers, a cruiser surely doesn't last long against 3 escorts. I recall a time that an escort would have to at least THINK about doing have the things they are able to do with the Aegis, Borg, etc sets.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
06-22-2011, 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admneal View Post
a cruiser surely doesn't last long against 3 escorts.
I beg to differ
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
06-22-2011, 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admneal View Post
OK, I have been playing from the start and all of the changes.... can beam weapons have some what of a chance against shields? Five beams at 125 power don't even scratch end game shields, yet a escort can rip ships shields and half the hull of a cruiser. I'm sorry but as it stands a escort has like 80% of the defense and 1000% times the bust damage of a cruiser. Designers....

Weren't beam weapons suppose to be good on shields and weak on hulls?
Can engineers get some form of offensive capacity rather than EWP, and other weak powers?
Why can an escort tank three ships and still get kills?

I could go on, but I'm not seeing the assault part of my assault cruiser.
First, the Assault Cruiser isn't about damage. If you approach it as a tank/healer with priority on APD and Tac Team over HE or TSS, then it's a great ship. It's good for sustained damage too.

Second, your problem isn't with beams, it's with torpedoes. If you put 8 beams on your cruiser you could burn down shields, but using 3 other weapons reduces your damage to shields too much to be effective. If you could burn down shields with 5 beams, imagine how overpowered you'd be with 8.

Another problem is with shield resists, and the worst culprit there is science fleet. One Science officer on the opposing team can harden everyone's shields as if they were running an extra EPtS. Multiple science officers on the same team can rotate science fleet to extend it's time. After the first minute or so of combat things even out, but in that initial rush one science officer can make everyones shields nigh invulnerable.

Other shield resists aren't that awful, but most fights are cruiser versus cruiser. Cruisers have the best defense and worst offense, which means that no one burns down anyone else's shields. An escort can burn through EPtS 3 if someone heals them, and a science ship can strip off shields or disrupt defenses, but most PvP is between cruiser which have no offensive ability other than trading broadsides with one another.

Cruisers are good for sustained damage, but they lack the firepower to take out other tanks. To kill a tank you need a specially built anti-tank ship. It's fine to play a cruiser with a focus on damage dealing, but to do so you need a team that can support you where you are weak -- most importantly you should have at least one escort helping with burst damage, and one or two science ships helping to overcome enemy defenses either through CC or debuffs.

One on one, a good cruiser ought to be able to take any escort, and most science ships. Against other tanks (mostly cruisers and carriers) neither side can really do enough damage to score a win. I've been in 45 minute fights against other cruisers with no winner, and I don't think I've ever seen one cruiser kill another with no one else firing on it.

Quote:
Why can an escort tank three ships and still get kills?
No escort can tank 3 ships long enough to score kills. An escort and a cruiser can, but the escort himself can't. The best an escort can do by themselves is hope to ambush someone that doesn't have any defenses up, or that has all their heals on cooldown -- in a 1-1 against a prepared cruiser they might not die, but they aren't going to score a kill either.

When you see a tank-escort, he's getting heals, even if it's just other escorts and science ships throwing him HE 1 and TSS 2. Many players watch out for the good escort pilots, and make a point to keep them healed, especially since the escorts draw way more player aggro than the actual tank ships do.

Quote:
Can engineers get some form of offensive capacity rather than EWP, and other weak powers?
I don't consider EWP a weak power, but I can agree that the other offensive engineering powers need improvement.

DEM is almost alright but like every other ability which bypasses shields, it's effect just isn't noticeable enough.

Boarding Party is fine versus NPCs, but against players the targetable shuttles are way too big a limitation. Several powers which are frequently used anyway clear or mitigate the effect of BP, so it really doesn't make sense that it is so easy to stop by hitting the shuttles.

Aceton Field... is just... bad. The damage is inconsequential, like all damage that passes shields, and it's a LC or CDR engineering ability which only fires int he forward arc. It's an ability that only cruisers can use, that requires more mobility than cruisers have. And when you hit with it, it's effect is indistinguishable from a placebo. You could remove the effect of AF and just leave the graphic and the debuff icon, and no one would know the difference.

While I don't believe a cruiser's role is burst damage, I don't mind giving them more DPS in their engineering powers (especially the LC/CDR ones) since taking those requires a trade off in survivability.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
06-22-2011, 04:25 PM
Beams don't need anymore love. They are pretty much fine the way they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krizonar
Maybe they'll buff Fire at will.
I see what you did there!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
06-22-2011, 04:30 PM
My Sci gets by just fine with 5 Beams + 1 Torp at 114 power (with no shield strip powers, so it's exactly like a Cruiser in that sense). Cruisers with 2 extra weapon slots and a much easier getting, and maintaining, 125 power should do far better.

Assault Cruisers + DEM 2/3 + Attack Pattern Beta + 6-8 Beam broadside = ouch. An Excelsior can pull it off even better.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
06-22-2011, 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post

No escort can tank 3 ships long enough to score kills.

Ha, well I guess my eyes deceive me, I have seen escorts do crazy things.... it kills me that you think I just started playing yesterday.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
06-22-2011, 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admneal View Post
Ha, well I guess my eyes deceive me, I have seen escorts do crazy things.... it kills me that you think I just started playing yesterday.
If you post the name of your character(s), it may help some people recognize you. Heck, I don't even recognize half the people I normally converse with on the forums in game until I see them post something in Zone chat or something so I see their @ handle :p
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