Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
06-26-2011, 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
It is interesting to note that the version of the Negh'Var we currently have ingame is the one from "All Good Things", where the ship was referred to as "Attack Cruiser" by Governor Worf.
The script referred to that ship as "Voodieh" class.
It was actually quite maneuverable in that episode, similar to the Negh'Var in STO yet quite unlike the Negh'Var from DS9.

The version from DS9 is completely missing and I'd like to add that the (probably-slightly-less-than-soft-canon) "Starships" module of the Decipher RPG suggests that that version is not really maneuverable.
Which would fit what we saw in "Way of the Warrior".

So my propoasl would be to use the term "Heavy Attack Cruiser" for the Negh'Var version we have ingame right now to fit "All Good Things" yet keep the Negh'var differentiated from the Vor'cha terminologywise.

I'm also hoping that one day we'll get the Negh'var incarnation from "Way of the Warrior", but as a seperate ship similar to the way the Galaxy and Galaxy-X are closely related cousins.
For that one perhaps "Negh'Var Heavy Battlecruiser" or a simple "Negh'Var Battleship" would be fitting.
And that Negh'var could have a spinal lance type thing like the "siege disruptors" it fired at DS9 when they tried to talk to them.

I'm liking where this thread's going though, I also agree that everything being a battle cruiser seems strange, they carried battleship level weaponry, but only cruiser level armour so they could kill anything that could catch them and run from anything that could outfight them, the Royal Navy lost moe ships than it ought to have at Jutland partly because battle cruisers were put in the line of battle toe to toe with battleships, and that's not the role they were designed for.

I'd say the Vor'cha was a battlecruiser, and the Negh'var a battleship, if we went by the strictly naval classifications, they have the same weaponry essentially, but one is more agile and one is tougher.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
06-26-2011, 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suricata View Post
The only reason I can see it been better to use the term battlecruiser rather than cruiser is to prevent any confusion with Starfleet ships, more so when weapon types have the ship types they can be equiped on.

I'm also not overly keen on using the term 'advanced', but with so many ship types in the game, it starts getting hard to come up with new terms whilst not duplicating any already in use that could cause confusion!
I made an effort to avoid duplicating any categories in my list, but that may eventually become moot if the plans to add more factions into the game eventually comes to pass. There's only so many terms to go around, less so if you're trying to keep things consistent, and somewhat realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeneezergoode
I'd say the Vor'cha was a battlecruiser, and the Negh'var a battleship, if we went by the strictly naval classifications, they have the same weaponry essentially, but one is more agile and one is tougher.
I could do a more comprehensive re-classification of the game, but I'm guessing Cryptic won't want to change anything more than absolutely neccesary (as shown by their continued refusal to fix the rank structure). So that means keeping things mostly in line with what they've already established, unless they want to provide more detailed guidance on the matter. That means, that while the Negh'Var does seem to come off as more of a Battleship than a Cruiser, it has to remain a Cruiser to tie it in with the rest of the ships in it's line.
Lt. Commander
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# 23
06-26-2011, 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinRa_Actual View Post
I made an effort to avoid duplicating any categories in my list, but that may eventually become moot if the plans to add more factions into the game eventually comes to pass. There's only so many terms to go around, less so if you're trying to keep things consistent, and somewhat realistic.
The good news is the Romulans can use "Warbird" for their cruisers, the bad news is they'd use "Bird of Prey" for their smaller ones.
Well we can always add "armored space thingy" to the list when push comes to shove.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 24
06-26-2011, 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
The good news is the Romulans can use "Warbird" for their cruisers, the bad news is they'd use "Bird of Prey" for their smaller ones.
Well we can always add "armored space thingy" to the list when push comes to shove.
Well, there's a couple of options from the literature when it comes to Birding up the Romulan ship tree when things get to that point; Preybird (Proto-BOP), Swarmbird, Stormbird (Romulan D-7s), et cetera. We're a ways off from that, but if Cryptic wants some help/advice in that area, they know how to contact me.
Lt. Commander
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# 25
06-26-2011, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinRa_Actual View Post
Well, there's a couple of options from the literature when it comes to Birding up the Romulan ship tree when things get to that point; Preybird (Proto-BOP), Swarmbird, Stormbird (Romulan D-7s), et cetera. We're a ways off from that, but if Cryptic wants some help/advice in that area, they know how to contact me.
"Battlebird" also sounds kinda fun.
The guys who make the Dominion War mod for Birth of the Federation use that one for their basic cruiser.
I'm currently working on a post-Nemesis refit for a Romulan D-7 3-d model (the novel "The Art of the Impossible" indicates the House of Duras aquired both wealth and close ties with the Romulans by selling off surplus ships in the early 24th century)
It would be a stop-gap refit required to fill the ranks because of the losses from the Dominion War with the kaboom of Romulus forcing them to stay in service even longer.
My guess is something similar to the old FASA Stormbird term would fit such a ship as well.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 26
06-26-2011, 10:33 AM
I'm a fan of the heavily modified D-7 that showed up in the DC comics, myself.

http://images.wikia.com/startrek/images/7/7e/DC2_53.jpg
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
06-26-2011, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
The good news is the Romulans can use "Warbird" for their cruisers, the bad news is they'd use "Bird of Prey" for their smaller ones.
Well we can always add "armored space thingy" to the list when push comes to shove.
Worf: Captain! A ship is decloaking off of the starboard bow!
Picard: Can you identify it Mr Worf?
Worf: It appears to be some kind of... armored space... thingy...
Picard:...
Riker:...
Picard:... Mr Data, could you please man tactical?
Data: Aye sir... scanning now.
Picard: Well Mr Data?
Data: I can confirm there is an armored space thingy approximately 2 kilometers from the starboard bow.
Picard: *facepalm*
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
06-26-2011, 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeneezergoode
Worf: Captain! A ship is decloaking off of the starboard bow!
Picard: Can you identify it Mr Worf?
Worf: It appears to be some kind of... armored space... thingy...
Picard:...
Riker:...
Picard:... Mr Data, could you please man tactical?
Data: Aye sir... scanning now.
Picard: Well Mr Data?
Data: I can confirm there is an armored space thingy approximately 2 kilometers from the starboard bow.
Picard: *facepalm*
I suspect mister_dee was referring to the historical category of Armoured Cruiser (and by extention, Protected Cruisers), which evolved into the Heavy and Light cruisers folks tend to be more familiar with.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 29
06-27-2011, 05:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinRa_Actual View Post
I suspect mister_dee was referring to the historical category of Armoured Cruiser (and by extention, Protected Cruisers), which evolved into the Heavy and Light cruisers folks tend to be more familiar with.
Not really but I guess that my thinking was so out of the box you could interpret it that way.
A typical human tendency, that we all exhibited here, is to put a name on something or to put it into a category.
It is a way for us to make things more "ordered" and to give us a feeling like we know something about something because we know its name.
An example where this was clearly not the case were the "Glorious", "Furious" and "Courageous" class Large Light Cruisers created by Fisher for the British RN.
Nobody knows what those things were intended for but it is assumed they were for shore bombardment.
But they had a name and a class, that was important.

Stargate Atlantis parodied that human tendecy in its pilot episode when the humans began to give various names to different gadgets they found in the city, like the "lifesign-detector".
The name gave them a feeling they knew something about the device even though they had no clue of its function whatsoever.

This was also parodied in an older "Perry Rhodan" book where the humans encoutered an alien adversary whose ships seemed to be in several places at once but where only in each place for a fraction of a second so it was difficult to hit them.
The humans solved the problem by simply blanketing the target area with large-caliber nuclear weapons.
But the alien ability made them uneasy...unti somone gave it the name "5-d indifference compensator".
One person at the briefing commented on that human tendency and remarked that the name did not give any insight into its actual inner mechanism but by giving it a fancy name the people in the room felt less...dumbfolded by it.

That's why I used "armored space thingy", because even when we run out of interesting terms (I played "Babylon5 Wars" and had to get used the Minbari "Heavy Battle Frigate" so I still have a few more up my sleeve) we can always fall back on that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
06-27-2011, 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
An example where this was clearly not the case were the "Glorious", "Furious" and "Courageous" class Large Light Cruisers created by Fisher for the British RN.
Nobody knows what those things were intended for but it is assumed they were for shore bombardment.
But they had a name and a class, that was important.
Actually, their purpose and the rationale of their designation is known; When Fisher returned to the Admiralty in 1915, he wanted more ships with 15 inch guns ordered, and in particular, more battlecruisers. This resulted in two of the Revenge class battleships being reordered as Battlecruisers (Renown and Repulse), but he did not have authorization from Parliment to order any further capital ships (as it was assumed the war would be over long before they'd be completed). He exploited a loophole that allowed him to order more Light Cruisers, hence the "Large Light Cruiser" designation.

The rationale for their design was to support an amphibious assault from the Baltic Sea (A pet project of Fisher's that never came to fruition), which required ships of a shallow draft to support the landings with heavy gunfire. Of course, the design compromises to achieve the shallow draft, high speed, and large guns were so extreme that the ships were tactically rather useless when completed, being built so lightly that they suffered damage from encountering bad weather and firing their own guns.

/history lesson
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