Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
07-05-2011, 06:27 AM
Excellent post Kilwpilath, + 100 internetz for you
I have no personnel experience of the Garumba, but I have to agree with everything else you said.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
07-05-2011, 06:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampir888 View Post
Here I tend to disagree (I'm primary a sci/sci player so I might be biased). Why? Because what you get from a deflector is more than balanced with the increased need of skill points for your powers. Tac/Eng ships have 3 sci powers at most. So if they use synergy effects they have to skill 3-4 skills (eg HE/PH/TB). Sci ships on the other hand have to use points for their sci skills and furthermore for weap/eng skill which (most of the time) have an additional passive effect. Besides that I don't think sci skills are that unbalanced until they are used by several people at once... but that's (for me) just another way of focus fire.
Maybe, many of the SCi I play with put as little as possible in weapons and usually go with the energy type that offers a proc complimentary to their build but they do not rely on weapons to do most of their damage. But again it falls back to optimal builds which there are like 2-3 for sci ships.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampir888 View Post
SNB is currently the only reliable way to kill res stacking. So for now it is a necessary evil. Also it needs a bit of timing to be really effective. That said I can live with a ST3 able to protect against a SNB1-3 but with the short duration of ST I doubt it will have any real influence. Just wait 5 sec with it.
It seems that defensive buffs outpace offensive buffs. If one tactical skill debuffs you by 20% a defensive buff gets you 30%



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampir888 View Post
Actually I don't think resistance is the problem but healing. Keep resistance as it is maybe even increase it a bit but change the heals to HoT. That way you will lose the yo-yo effect while still being able to survive focused fire for some time. But because of the missing heal you better use the time to get away.
I disagree, I have alphas blunted to 10K because of the stack a resist. While I agree healing is OP'd but if healing were the only thing you would see more bragging about uber damage numbers. Like a I said earlier rock, paper, scissors model is broken. Rock beats both paper and scissors now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampir888 View Post
This is supposed to change with S4... at least for STFs.
This has been promised for every update since they introduced STFs color me skeptical.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
07-05-2011, 08:22 AM
I don't know about the dark side, I like a well thought out thread without a lot of self serving assertions. And now, time to provide some self serving assertions.

I'd be much happier if Scramble Sensors, as a quick fix, at least allowed you to cast on yourself reliably, didn't last quite as long, and stopped stealing powers like Evasive Maneuvers. I understand that SNB will need some work but until resistance stacking is addressed we can't afford a weaker SNB.

As for the Team powers, I rather like the idea that the tier of the the team skill should have a relative effect to the tier of the skill being countered or removed. It's not like it would have to be a direct 1:1 either, since a lower tier Sci Team could simple reduce the duration of Scramble Sensors by some percentage based on the skill points in that counter. This would take a fair amount of work to balance out but it would certainly create a greater utility for some of the upper tier Team powers. I do NOT think they need a long resistance (like 10 seconds on Tactical Team) unless the cool down on these team powers is increased.

As for healing and resistances, I'm actually ok with Shields becoming the main focus since if anything is going to have a yo yo effect it makes more sense that Shields should do it than physical hull. I don't necessarily think that the right balance has yet been established, but I do think shields are the right way to go.

With the announcement of more Open PvPvE content being available with Season 4 there is finally some hope on the Open PVP front, even if they did later announce that it won't be immediately available with Season 4. This is a very exciting prospect after all this time so I'm trying to maintain cautious optimism. I'm all for a large open PVP sector (ideally the neutral zone) where you can enter any system, for any reason or no reason at all, and find some level of pew pew. Give us some tools and we'll figure out how to entertain ourselves, lol. Institute a flag system to avoid grieffing, encourage people who want aren't interested in Open PVP to get from point a to point b quickly or they'll become a viable target >.

As for FvF, seriously, this has gone too wrong for too long. To avoid hurting anyone's feelings, and maybe even reduce the amount of leeching, just add a bunch of additional mission and accolades that are specific to FvK (the ACTUAL war). These could offer greater rewards for x number of FvK matches and another for wins in FvK matches. This wouldn't hurt the Feds who are content to play with themselves and would actually encourage participation in the WAR.

The inability to have cross faction teaming, even against the Borg or in private matches (where they can be on the same side but are unable to join teams) is pretty silly after all this time. One guy even had a theory that it was impossible because Klinks operated off of a different server, which is also the source of their over poweredness, lol.

I would like new PVP maps and I certainly wouldn't turn them away, but that's just more window dressing. Granted, if they ever open up the systems in the Neutral Zone to some good Open PVP that would help this problem a lot. I am concerned about getting another Solar Wind though... I really hate the effect that map has on my PC.

I really am not qualified to comment on ground combat since it's not my cup of tea, but the z-axis issue in space (curse you Cannon Blind Spot!) and insane ceilings/floors really hurt things in space. I could deal with Cryptic just causing things to loop from top to bottom and side to side as you've suggested, but I'd even be fine with it if they raised the floor and dropped the ceiling so that we were flying in a rectangle rather than a square. It's an odd limitation, but they created these environments (as few as their are available) so they should be used. Lots of unused space is no space at all.

I am concerned with the generally poor communication, and short sightedness in regards to PVP. You'll never find a more dedicated bunch being so woefully disregarded because they are in the minority. I'm sorry to sound so negative but it is easier to get caught up in the relatively major problems that have been around for entirely too long (or nice features that have been absent for too long). The truth is, I still like the game a lot, otherwise I wouldn't be spending so damned much time here. >_<
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
07-05-2011, 10:18 AM
About those who have given disagreements on how I feel about the Team abilities and their ability to neutralize harmful effects..

This is a team base game. (Eh, sure, pun intended) So it should be necessary to have a tac in order to clear tac debuffs. A Sci for Sci debuffs. And an Engi for Engi debuffs out side of what your ship can handle on it's own. Let's not forget it's not like there aren't ships that have Lt Commander slots that are out side of their Class.. Such as the Excelsior, the Nebula, the MVAM, or the Vor'quv for example.

There are also things in the game that bother me from the PVE side that are in PVP, but it's more about the PVE then the PVP in that respect, such as Hargh'peng Torpedos being Fed Only right now. Heck, as it stands I'm almost expecting them to put those things on the C-Store at this point. I know they have plans to put them on a Klingon mission, but it's been a couple months now, you'd think they could have handled it by now...

As far as me being on the Dark side.. It's more of a year and five months disgruntled out of my life time subscription so far. I'd love to feel like I haven't wasted that money not just from that, but from all the C-store points I bought and spent to buy ships, Races, and other goodies along the way.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
07-05-2011, 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilawpilath View Post
About those who have given disagreements on how I feel about the Team abilities and their ability to neutralize harmful effects..

This is a team base game. (Eh, sure, pun intended) So it should be necessary to have a tac in order to clear tac debuffs.
The problem with that is that a reactive counter will always be weaker than an offensive attack. You would need to buff Science Team, Tactical Team and Engineering Team so that they are worth it on their own at the respective ranks. Engineering Team is probably the only one up there. Otherwise one guy just plays the rule of being the "counterer" and can't do anything else - but unlike a healer, you don't even know if there is something to counter (you definitely know that were will be something to heal).

I think the current "counter"-system works fine. It still forces players to make hard choices about what to put in their respective slots. It makes not having a Science team 1 on an Escort a potential risk, and having it a potential advantage. If only Science Team 3 can clear science debuffs, you'll probably end with no Escort ever again using Science Team 1, because he won't be able to use the ST anyway. Instead you get more HEs or TSSs.

I am not generally opposed to the idea that counters must work identical at all ranks against all ranks, but they must work in some way. The effect might be diminished in some way - maybe ST I counters 1 debuff, ST II 2 debuffs, and ST II 3 debuffs. Or maybe the counter takes into effect after a variable number of seconds depending on rank or rank difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian
But many of the things you pointed out is why I personally believe Cryptic needs to start Space Combat from scratch, because it has really gotten stupid with the Heal Builds, Dependance on Buffs and Resitances, and of course the Sci Spam. It's so bad it has made Elite Difficulty "easy". Some of us can even solo the space parts of the Cure and Infected (the current versions on the Holodeck).

Pretty much space has been trivailized and Cryptic knows it. Hopefully they will start their reinvisioning of space after they get the new Ground Combat all straightened out.
Look at the Ground Season 4 change:
1) A very tiny minority of people cared about ground combat.
2) It was not a full revamp (we still have kits, BOs, weapon-switching requirements, non-FPS), but it still took them over half a year to get it.
3) People are still not happy with the results (especially old "LOL Ground" PvPers)
4) People are somewhat happier with it, overall, particularly for PvE.


I think what Cryptic can do reasonably is rebalancing a few powers, doing tweaks. It won't reduce the buff, resistance or heal dependence at all: But that's not really a problem from a balance point of view. The problem is only the relative strengths of these, and a few outlying powers. I think that's a reasonable change to implement, and PvP will work just fine. It won't make you feel entirely like it's Startrek, because Science Vessels still create Tyken's Rift and people still yo-yo their health. But you will feel that every class and every power has a viable role, and there are many combinations to be used.

But going back further just means we are writing a new game system and hope that we get things right the first time around. That might happen if Cryptic was Blizzards and had a gazillion ton of money and time to get it right, but we're talking about Cryptic, a smaller firm with fewer resources.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
07-05-2011, 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilawpilath View Post
As far as me being on the Dark side.. It's more of a year and five months disgruntled out of my life time subscription so far. I'd love to feel like I haven't wasted that money not just from that, but from all the C-store points I bought and spent to buy ships, Races, and other goodies along the way.
That's exactly how I feel.

And due to the lack of content, all we got to do at End-game is PvP, Accolade grind, or play Foundry missions all day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilawpilath View Post
This is a team base game. (Eh, sure, pun intended)
Not true. Outside of STFs and PvP, STO is pretty much a single player game. And PvP only became more about Team play when they buffed up Hazzard Emitters and Extend Shields (for the most part). But before that, outside of PvP fleets, people pretty much fought alone.

And to prove it, the only AoE Buffs or Heals are on the Ground, but in Space we got offensive AoEs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial_Fury
Well, if the devs ever were gonna to remove or lower most healing/repair powers then i hope that every ships would see their basic hull and shield hp being tripled.

I never thought that it made much sense to see capital ships going down after just a few shots taken at them. While it did happen in real-life history to see battleships juggernaut like the Yamato getting sunk kinda fast, i really prefer to see the battleships more like what the Bismarck was where extended battles on the line had to be fought to take it down and persistant attacks of stinging bees ( airplanes and torpedoes ).

It always saddens me when i see a Star Cruiser blow away in the first 3 seconds of an engagement. Capital ships should be resilient.
That's what I been hoping for since day 1 of PvP, because it really does not feel like Star Trek like it supposed to be. Like you said, we have battleships blowing up in seconds.

I always felt that Cryptic strayed too far from the balance between offense and defense, where now we got Escorts that tank (almost too well) and Heal builds that can be so strong that being focused fired by 5 players don't leave a dent (see TSI). Shields in this game could be drastically buffed without being too OP by tweeking Emergency Shields (I.E. remove the shield resistance and make resistance strictly by power level settings).

And surely be great if there was a random modifier like you have with Bridge Commander where an important system gets damaged without being focus fired. That surely would end those famed Cruiser vs Cruiser or Attacker vs Healer stalemates. Instead, it's a lucky phaser disable proc or people stacking target subsystems in a team strategy (which is lame btw).

All in all, Cryptic just doesn't care about PvP and I just wish they put it out its misery if they aren't going to put any real effort into it. Sure the new Open DSE PvP is okay, but people will obviously get bored of that real fast since nobody will ever get a chance to loot a transport.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Look at the Ground Season 4 change:
1) A very tiny minority of people cared about ground combat.
2) It was not a full revamp (we still have kits, BOs, weapon-switching requirements, non-FPS), but it still took them over half a year to get it.
3) People are still not happy with the results (especially old "LOL Ground" PvPers)
4) People are somewhat happier with it, overall, particularly for PvE.


I think what Cryptic can do reasonably is rebalancing a few powers, doing tweaks. It won't reduce the buff, resistance or heal dependence at all: But that's not really a problem from a balance point of view. The problem is only the relative strengths of these, and a few outlying powers. I think that's a reasonable change to implement, and PvP will work just fine. It won't make you feel entirely like it's Startrek, because Science Vessels still create Tyken's Rift and people still yo-yo their health. But you will feel that every class and every power has a viable role, and there are many combinations to be used.

But going back further just means we are writing a new game system and hope that we get things right the first time around. That might happen if Cryptic was Blizzards and had a gazillion ton of money and time to get it right, but we're talking about Cryptic, a smaller firm with fewer resources.
Not true, Cryptic gotten such bad press regarding it's Ground combat that they had to fix it to retain players. Ground PvP just went along for the ride. But since Ground PvP Testers are the ones at the front lines, we are discovering bugs with the new system like the heal invulnerability (go figure, just like in space. ).

But I won't disagree with what you said about Cryptic's limited resources, but the fact is they don't look before they leap. They only think about "whats fun for PvE" and never think of consequnces it may have for the community. For instance the new DSE PvP, look how half---thought out it was. They just copy and pasted the Transport Raid from Pi Canis, put in a "safe spot", but never thought about Klingon players looting those transports while being fired upon by instantly respawning Federation. Which pretty much makes the DSE PvP useless from day 1. And it becomes nothing but miniatureized Ker'rat (minus the Borg).

And because of Cryptic fixing all these things that people been complaining about, they don't have the manpower to put in new Content. And with no new content, people are leaving out of pure boredom. Which pretty much means when TOR goes live, this place will be a graveyard.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
07-05-2011, 11:04 AM
/signed

One other thing that doesn't make sense is the global cooldown for team abilities.

If you pop an EPtS, it creates a 30 second global cooldown for another EPtS ability. But for EPtA, EPtE, and EPtW it only creates a 15 second global. Same thing applies to target subsystems.

Now, if you pop a ST, it creates a 15 second global for another ST. However, unlike the previous example it also creates a 15 second global for a TT or an ET. This flies in the face of how global cool-downs work for every other skill in the game and hurts variety (since people will usually only want to take at most two team abilities, often of the same type). At the very least, the global cooldown for dissimilar team abilities should be 7.5 seconds, or at the very least dropped down to 10sec.
Lt. Commander
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# 18 Ground PVP and Skill Trees
07-05-2011, 11:20 AM
While i was reading responses, I realized I never really touched on how I feel about ground PVP. And yes, I have issues with ground..

Super Crits. While on tribble (mind you this isn't live yet, so I'm sure things may get changed here) I experienced a crit that made me litterally stare at the screen in shock and think to my self.. wtf? And it was a 950 damage from a Tac who crit me while flanking me. I looked at my health, and I saw that I only have 500ish Health. Now, my memory is foggy on if my shields were up or not, but I think they were doing well enough. And I believe I was wearing, at the time, my Energy Dampening Armor, and sure I was on my Tac as well, so my ability to buff my own resistances were next to nothing at best. But really? A shot that can almost kill me twice over? And I can't even react to it, can't defend against it, just Boom I'm dead. I guess sure, it makes sense in a realistic value of the same way a "head shot" in FPS should be an instant kill. But they have said they never intended to make the ground a FPS. So if that's the case... again.. wtf? I know it's possible to do that, constantly. It just sucks the fun out of it for me.

Tacs seem superior to all. Where in space, healing is over powered, on the ground, Damage is the way to go. It seems better to be able to one shot your opponent then it is to even bother being a science healer. Engineer also, despite it's toys and gimics, doesn't feel as useful, again, as another Tac.

Tacs are the only one that can buff weapons. While I like that they are the damage dealers, and it makes sense they are the weapon specalists, it would be awesome if Sci's could buff the damage of their own weapons (Pistols perhaps) and Engis could be more about Heavy Weapons, it would be nice to have the option to at least improve, maybe not to the same extent as a Tac, but improve damage some how, some way.

Now, I will admit, my views are on my experiences in ground PVP. And my Experiences have been ALOT less then some of the ground centralized PVP Fleets. But those above are things that bother me ALOT when I'm on the ground. So I appologize if those sound like "newb" statements. I personally would love to be able to play ground more. Get to know it's ins and outs. But in it's current state, not to mention with the way the skills are set up in the game currently, I haven't been interested..

Which brings me to another area that effects PVP just as much as PVE.. Skill trees..

The way skills are set up right now annoys the heck out of me at times. The Weapon skills rank at the TOP of that list. Why should it cost 500 points per rank for the "Tier 5", or any other Weapon in the game? And they all do the same thing.. buff the damage of the weapon (Save Tricobolts, good job with that!! ) That just boggles my mind right there.
Also, I've been a long time Diablo and World of ******** player. Probobly not as long as others out there that still play it to this day. But why not take similarites to their Skil ltrees, and make it where if you "Spec" in Antiproton, you get more out of it? Say greater Crit Severity. Maybe even some special added effect for training of a BO purpose for Tactical players that could get something fancy for training in it? Same with the other skills. Maybe if you max out Phasers you actually get the universal target subsystem powers that Science ships enjoy? I'm just throwing Ideas out there, but anything would be better then this so far.
It also bothers me how there feels like Science and Engineering get more they can train then a Tac. Or at least a Sci and an Engi have more useful skills for their class of ships then a Tac seems to have. Not to mention there seems to be less to choose from concerning Tacs in what BO powers they have. And that's in Space. Ground how ever things are abit more equal, though it bothers me that if you Train in the Tier 5 Abilities you can only train in either a version I or Version II of a power and rarely a Version III of a particular skill. Granted those only effect PVE. But it feels wrong.

Which brings me to Mines in the Skill trees and their BO powers... Which feel EXTREMELY useless to even spec around in PVP. What's the point of specing in the ability to train Dispersal Pattern 3 when it's better to have High Yield 3? Not to mention Mines do so little damage (Except for Tricobolts) they seem only useful for one thing: Procs. And if that's the case, then again, make it more worth spending those points. If your going to spend the points to have 9 Ranks in Chronoton, then the Proc should either Last Longer, or have a greater chance to proc. Not just increase the damage. I mean let's face it, Mines, in PVP, only have 2 Uses in this game: Spam, and Proc chance. They don't stop a ship from flying into a ball and killing a target. They aren't much of a deterant. They are simply an annoyance. Yet, in any space TV show or Movie I ever saw, Space Mine fields were DANGEROUS. They always caused great harm to ships that encountered them. Yet in this game, nothing. Maybe it's because of Shield resistances and capacities being so high. Maybe it's because of hull resistances being high. I don't know personally, but what ever it is, Mines have no true value in PVP except for maybe the special cases like Cloaking TRactor Mines, Tricobolts, and again, for the Proc, Chronoton. Which means the Dispersal Patterns are also equally Useless. Because who cares if you can launch more Mines? They don't really do that much anyway, and can't effect one out of those three mine types. So why bother?

Engineering Skills trees sseem to be the most balanced. They seem to give the most benifit. And it is nearly alwalys worth it to put 9 ranks into most of the Tier 3+ Skills because their effects are just that useful. Not to mention the Engineer Captian gets the most from the Training ability of those trainings.. all except 1 Skill: Subsystem Repair. This skill does nothing but wastes points. I've NEVER seen it work. Never been told it works. And it doesn't even Contribute to anything. If the Developers removed this skill from the game, no one would even notice it's gone except for the people who put points into it. And even then they'd be able to just put those points some where else and it wouldn't change a thing. Maybe it's a Broken skill. Maybe it just never got turned on. What ever the case there is no reason to even glance at that skill. It's so useless, I almost had to open the game just to remember what it was called..

Science skill trees are balanced and yet they aren't. There are some skills that just aren't worth using, like why bother with Photonic Shockwave 3 when Photonic Shockwave 1 gets the job done? I think some work could be done here to improve things more then they have already. And yes, I'm aware they have already done this before.

The ship and Training skills I have no problems with. They feel fine the way they are. It would be nice if they just Classified things perhaps a little better then they are right now, but it does give diversity to the game which is nice.

As a whole, there feels like there's just too much to need for Space, and just not enough need for the Ground portions of the game. You can almost get away with Sacrificing a few points for the Space part of the game, or not even put any points at all in Space, and still do fine on the ground. Granted probobly not going to One shot people, and your toys will get killed quickly, But you'd be alright. Even if you speced in ground, it actually feels like your sacrificing from Space more then ground at all. I'd love to see them give 2 Seperate trees to the game. One seperate tree for Space training an then a second one, that you get points towards seperately, for the Ground parts. They could then even Diversify ground more and add more too it.

Those are my issues with ground PVP and skill trees so far..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
07-05-2011, 11:30 AM
Speaking of skills, now that anyone can train skills for anyone else, the level 2 cmdr. skills stick out like a sore thumb. Would be a difficult design issue to fix though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
07-05-2011, 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilawpilath View Post
Crits Bot Fly with Wall of Text 3 for 15900 ( 250000) kinetic..
You mean this game has ground pvp?
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