Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
07-09-2011, 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluerockBeing04 View Post
Lastly, weapons with a DOT modifier are pointless now. It won't matter if your weapon does extra radiation damage, the only thing that matters now is the burst damage potential.
The dot modifier on weapons was never any good for the actual damage, its there to stop shield regeneration.. and i find that quite usefull actually, depends a bit against what class tho, its most effective against tac's actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
Engies just have to camp in general :p
Depends on the opponents, i find offensive play as engineer to work well most of the time.. not as good as it used to be but it still does work to some degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
Which is why arena sucks in a game like this. Because you have to engage that group at some point if you want kills. And if not, they'll come for you. There's no time limit on games, it's kill to the end.
I prefer action packet games with minimal camping, arena rocks (no pve objectives to sidetrack you from what pvp is really about).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
After constantly running into the Fista Sisters, they pretty much conditioned me to leave the match. Because I know it's a losing battle if they are on the other side. And newbies to GPVP is starting to do the same. Its almost like STO at launch all over again.
Did you really expect that having a new gameplay would change who wins?

Adapting is the strong point of any true pvper.. regardless how much they nerf the gameplay or screw the class balance, the true pvp'ers will just adapt to it and play with classes & weapons that most effective for the job at hand.

If anything, the changes made it actually worse for newbies on ground tbh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
But they got me thinking how stupid Cryptics new system is regarding PvP. For starters, there should be consequences when charging and being in the open. In the real world or in Star Trek, you aren't going to RAMBO charge like that. So there should really be some major accuracy and negative defense modifiers when moving. That way it encourages you to take cover more often.
Bad idea it means we will just all sit behind corners waiting for the others to make the move... if theres one thing i totally hate then its exactly that sort of gameplay.. its boring.

I wouldnt want games to emulate the real world either.. one of the main reasons to play games is actually evading the real world and having fun... if we all sit behind corners because charging in makes us lose accuracy and thus lose, the game just becomes a stalemate between good players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Really shows how PvE and PvP cannot be balanced and they need seperate programing to do the balancing.
But it worked well before.. regular ground pvp'ers had fun in pvp and theres enough videos around from people doing stf's in 30-45 minutes (before the change), elite explorations on ground under the old systems were doable in like 8-10 minutes for me too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
07-09-2011, 01:07 PM
mikiy, I'd rather have things like Plant the Bomb, or Multi Plant the Bomb. Where the team has to split up into groups to defend their base, and plant the bomb in an opposing team, or they can each choose to mass up for one all or nothing strike etc. etc,
Or Zombies modes, VIP, king of the hill (where the hill moves). There's more to non deathmatch than just pve objectives.

Than old fashioned Death Match in a tight narrow hallway which takes things like maneuvering and mobility out of the equation. There's no skill really in who launches the most blast weapons off first, and who's got the most pets and shields.

Part of pvp, is dynamic gameplay in a variety of win/loss conditions on varying levels which play to different strengths.

Pvp right now? Plays heavy on Blast Spam and mobile fortress building.

The game mechanics are about right. However the gameplay is still terrible and lacking in variety.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
07-09-2011, 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
Did you really expect that having a new gameplay would change who wins?

Adapting is the strong point of any true pvper.. regardless how much they nerf the gameplay or screw the class balance, the true pvp'ers will just adapt to it and play with classes & weapons that most effective for the job at hand.

If anything, the changes made it actually worse for newbies on ground tbh.
That much is true. And in the end S4 Ground changes just ends up being a temporary Spike and it will return to being a graveyard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
Bad idea it means we will just all sit behind corners waiting for the others to make the move... if theres one thing i totally hate then its exactly that sort of gameplay.. its boring.

I wouldnt want games to emulate the real world either.. one of the main reasons to play games is actually evading the real world and having fun... if we all sit behind corners because charging in makes us lose accuracy and thus lose, the game just becomes a stalemate between good players.
Like you said above, you would adapt. But it would give bad players an increased chance to enjoy PvP without being curbstomped over and over again by experienced players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
But it worked well before.. regular ground pvp'ers had fun in pvp and theres enough videos around from people doing stf's in 30-45 minutes (before the change), elite explorations on ground under the old systems were doable in like 8-10 minutes for me too.
And yet your idea of fun ends up being the misery of others who don't stand a chance. Your own fleet members commented long ago after Ground PvP was completely dead that you lose interest because there was no players, because you chased them all away. Which is exactly why Space PvP is on life support, because all the best players discouraged new participants.

So there is a choice to be made, Newbs never return, you guys lighten up, or Cryptic steps in.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
07-09-2011, 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
mikiy, I'd rather have things like Plant the Bomb, or Multi Plant the Bomb. Where the team has to split up into groups to defend their base, and plant the bomb in an opposing team, or they can each choose to mass up for one all or nothing strike etc. etc,
Or Zombies modes, VIP, king of the hill (where the hill moves). There's more to non deathmatch than just pve objectives.
If i think about about the shanty games of the last year on ground, i can't remember many games with people actually doing the virus runs, while some may don't know how to a lot of others just don't care to much for pve objectives in pvp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
Than old fashioned Death Match in a tight narrow hallway which takes things like maneuvering and mobility out of the equation. There's no skill really in who launches the most blast weapons off first, and who's got the most pets and shields.
If you would have played on ground before season4 and encountered me in those hallways 1on1 i would have surely easily convinced you that movement actually is the key to winning in arenas, theres tons of stuff to cover or dodge around.

Now after season4 your right in that, that the mobility actually took a hit, i spend more time snared and not able to run nowadays then actually moving, so if anything this is a problem season4 introduced.. same with the shotguns.. before season4 sniper rifles/type3's were the gun to have, now after season4 with 0.5 seconds more on the sniper animation, snipers are just a toy mostly for maps like otha or maybe shanty if sniping from the roof doesn't bore you to death.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
07-09-2011, 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
If i think about about the shanty games of the last year on ground, i can't remember many games with people actually doing the virus runs, while some may don't know how to a lot of others just don't care to much for pve objectives in pvp.
Not true, if the objectives are part of winning the match then people would do them. Like Capturing the Flag in FPS games, where Objectives matter for the sake of winning. Shanty Town and Capture and Hold are really poor implementations of that system. But to me the best PvP was in other MMOs like in EQ, ****, and SWG, where you were fighting for a real reason. Like preventing a rival guild from doing a dungeon run, or preventing a rival faction from getting a nice faction buff.


But as for those who "don't care too much for PvE objectives", you guys are the hunters and the killers. Thats why just plain regular Open PVP zones are needed, it gives you the outlet and not impeeding on those who fight for reasons or goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
Before season4 sniper rifles/type3's were the gun to have, now after season4 with 0.5 seconds more on the sniper animation, snipers are just a toy mostly for maps like otha or maybe shanty if sniping from the roof doesn't bore you to death.
Well at least Cryptic made some effort in making sniper rifles, sniper rifles. Personally I wish they had a longer range with a stronger punch, with a greater cooldown with the secondary fire. They would be perfect to cover in shanty town from the roofs, or covering down corridors in the arena zones (of course these courses going in circles doesn't help with that aspect).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
07-09-2011, 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
If i think about about the shanty games of the last year on ground, i can't remember many games with people actually doing the virus runs, while some may don't know how to a lot of others just don't care to much for pve objectives in pvp.



If you would have played on ground before season4 and encountered me in those hallways 1on1 i would have surely easily convinced you that movement actually is the key to winning in arenas, theres tons of stuff to cover or dodge around.

Now after season4 your right in that, that the mobility actually took a hit, i spend more time snared and not able to run nowadays then actually moving, so if anything this is a problem season4 introduced.. same with the shotguns.. before season4 sniper rifles/type3's were the gun to have, now after season4 with 0.5 seconds more on the sniper animation, snipers are just a toy mostly for maps like otha or maybe shanty if sniping from the roof doesn't bore you to death.
And that's not a pve objective. Nor is it something which requires direct conflict between teams in order to win. There's no mix of offense or defense on shanty town. It's frankly another example of poor map and objective design.

Play some Halo, plant the bomb, etc if you want a good example of objective games. Come to think of it Halo's maps in general are far superior to wannabe sto's, or hell the Zombie modes. If STO has any hope of surviving Star Wars coming release it's going to have to look outside of it's own dank inbred game studios for inspiration.

Yeah, I'm referring specifically to S4 here. Pre Season 4 is not relevant to the current situation in pvp.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
07-09-2011, 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
That much is true. And in the end S4 Ground changes just ends up being a temporary Spike and it will return to being a graveyard.
Yea you don't tell me anything new there.. i wrote exactly that before S4 came when reading about their plans to make it all faster, different ranges, shotguns.. my prediction is totally in line with yours there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
And yet your idea of fun ends up being the misery of others who don't stand a chance. Your own fleet members commented long ago after Ground PvP was completely dead that you lose interest because there was no players, because you chased them all away. Which is exactly why Space PvP is on life support, because all the best players discouraged new participants.
Yea blame the good players for the state of pvp... but thats how it is in any game, either losing motivates you to learn how to play it and you make friends to actually teamplay it or you don't.. no amount of game changes ever will make new players win against veterans in pvp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
So there is a choice to be made, Newbs never return, you guys lighten up, or Cryptic steps in.
They did already.. they speeded it up, now the new players die faster then ever :c)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Not true, if the objectives are part of winning the match then people would do them. Like Capturing the Flag in FPS games, where Objectives matter for the sake of winning. Shanty Town and Capture and Hold are really poor implementations of that system.
Well it leaves the choice between killing and pve objectives.. most people seem to prefer killing - although its much slower in shanty going by how games plays out most of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
But as for those who "don't care too much for PvE objectives", you guys are the hunters and the killers. Thats why just plain regular Open PVP zones are needed, it gives you the outlet and not impeeding on those who fight for reasons or goals.
Actually different to you im not interessted in openpvp areas.. i've seen it in **** at launch, thousands of players zerging onto thousands of other players. Those battles are purely decided by what side brings more people.. its not worth my time. I prefer small arena's with even numbers where the quality of people actually matters and you have the feeling you are actually contributing to your team.

What i've seen of openpvp so far in mmorpgs were tailored towards zerg guilds, zerg guilds are not my type of guild. I prefer small elite guilds based upon quality people that can totally depend on each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Well at least Cryptic made some effort in making sniper rifles, sniper rifles. Personally I wish they had a longer range with a stronger punch, with a greater cooldown with the secondary fire. They would be perfect to cover in shanty town from the roofs, or covering down corridors in the arena zones (of course these courses going in circles doesn't help with that aspect).
Maybe thats your type of gameplay.. i find sitting on the roof waiting for some victim to come into distance to one-shot snipe em from a save distance actually rather a bit lame.. its good for a few giggles but its not really teamplay bussiness and lacks quite a bit on action too - im glad that doesn't work in arenas, you actually got to deal with opponents in your face there


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
There's no mix of offense or defense on shanty town. It's frankly another example of poor map and objective design.
Actually there is if played right..
- you got to defend your own base.
- you got to defend the capture point (theres 2 positions for that)
- you got to have a virus runner (an offensive job)
- you may need guards for the runner or go offensive and take their base, may need to defend it with your offensive players.

We've even some video on youtube of a fs vs chc game in shanty with capturing i think, probably this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrrGLfWZkqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV4a1uNW7Dc

If you watch the score at the end and the action you'll see we didn't won it by making 60 kills, but rather by a mix of defending the capture point/carrier and doing the pve objectives and ignored chc bunkering on the bridge mostly

So yea shanty has offensive/defensive teamplay capabilities, the problem is rather that 99% of all games i've been people totally ignore the virus options and rather go killing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
07-09-2011, 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
Yea blame the good players for the state of pvp... but thats how it is in any game, either losing motivates you to learn how to play it and you make friends to actually teamplay it or you don't.. no amount of game changes ever will make new players win against veterans in pvp.
I won't disagree that part of it is learning to get good at it. But this strict reliance on Teamplay is really the Achielle's heal with STO PvP because teamwork greatly distances that from other players. So non-teamed players really have no chance in H when they fight a premade.

That core mechanic really needs to change, because it's been a year since STO launched and people still PuGing (including myself). So Cryptic needs totally rethink everything, else PvP in STO might as well be disbanded.

Unless you Hardcore PvPers are finally going to give up your secrets in how to improve. I myself have hit the wall that I realize that I will never be a 10 and have to suffice as an 7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
They did already.. they speeded it up, now the new players die faster then ever :c)
And yet, just look at it now. Already a few days and people are already giving up. That really shows how terrible the PvP system is in STO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
Well it leaves the choice between killing and pve objectives.. most people seem to prefer killing - although its much slower in shanty going by how games plays out most of the time.
As I said, if Cryptic makes the right map the story would be different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
Actually different to you im not interessted in openpvp areas.. i've seen it in **** at launch, thousands of players zerging onto thousands of other players. Those battles are purely decided by what side brings more people.. its not worth my time. I prefer small arena's with even numbers where the quality of people actually matters and you have the feeling you are actually contributing to your team.

What i've seen of openpvp so far in mmorpgs were tailored towards zerg guilds, zerg guilds are not my type of guild. I prefer small elite guilds based upon quality people that can totally depend on each other.
I don't like Zerging either, in the real world zerging always ended up with severe causalties, and MMO companies never understood that. And that is precisely why I suggested that Negative Accuracy Modfier when moving, that way it promotes more cautious tactics more true to real military battles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiy
Maybe thats your type of gameplay.. i find sitting on the roof waiting for some victim to come into distance to one-shot snipe em from a save distance actually rather a bit lame.. its good for a few giggles but its not really teamplay bussiness and lacks quite a bit on action too - im glad that doesn't work in arenas, you actually got to deal with opponents in your face there
Yes, I'm a sharpshooter at heart and not the guy charging blindlessly their way into battle. I like to think strategically than tactically.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
07-09-2011, 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
So there is a choice to be made, Newbs never return, you guys lighten up, or Cryptic steps in.
If "newbs" want to get better, then they can use the private queue system to practice, or watch our videos. Or read our hundreds of forum posts about ground combat. Collectively the people in FS have the most forum posts about ground advice and the most ground pvp videos on YouTube. Not to mention, we spoke up in the Tribble forums about class balance and powers. We did our part to contribute to the community. Yet we get flamed like this.

And the reason we play in a team is because we do often run into tough and challenging matches against SETF, CHC, and other good ground pugs, and other members of our fleet who are supporting pug groups (I often play with pugs and heal them against FS team--that's how I got better... by playing against FS premades). That is the kind of PvP that we like. Maybe I call it "baptism by fire" but the pugs should shape up and start teaming together, coordinating, organizing, etc., if they don't want to lose by big margins. Cryptic has already made a fleet search system if you are not in a fleet already. Also there are plenty of casual Pug vs Pug matches, which I have been in, that are a lot of fun. In no way does FS hog the queue. There are plenty of Pug vs Pug matches.

As for "lightening up" -- we do go in easy mode quite frequently. The reason we are called "fister" is because we often revert to fighting with just fists, no energy weapons, to lighten up against the opposing team and let them get some shots in. So I do think we deserve some credit for lightening up already and playing in easy mode. Sometimes people in the FS fleet will just sit out the whole game (especially when other people beam out from us, oddly enough). How is that supposed to be fair to us--when someone beams out of a match, so then one of us has to sit out for the whole match. Talk about a waste of time.

What bothers me is that no one really asks why a winning team is doing well, or ask how they can get better. Instead they get flamed and Cryptic gets blamed. This is such a simple MMO, such simple controls and powers and in my opinion, and very easy to learn. We aren't any smarter than the rest of the community. I think we just tried harder to learn and never gave up by beaming out. If you ask me, that's the problem with the STO PVP community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
And yet your idea of fun ends up being the misery of others who don't stand a chance.
Our idea of fun is playing with friends and learning how to play as a team, this is an MMO, people should be more social and team up together. Actually they do stand a chance if you just read all our forum posts or watch our videos.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
07-09-2011, 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meeowww View Post
If "newbs" want to get better, then they can use the private queue system to practice, or watch our videos. Or read our hundreds of forum posts about ground combat. Collectively the people in FS have the most forum posts about ground advice and the most ground pvp videos on YouTube. Not to mention, we spoke up in the Tribble forums about class balance and powers. We did our part to contribute to the community. Yet we get flamed like this.

And the reason we play in a team is because we do often run into tough and challenging matches against SETF, CHC, and other good ground pugs, and other members of our fleet who are supporting pug groups (I often play with pugs and heal them against FS team--that's how I got better... by playing against FS premades). That is the kind of PvP that we like. Maybe I call it "baptism by fire" but the pugs should shape up and start teaming together, coordinating, organizing, etc., if they don't want to lose by big margins. Cryptic has already made a fleet search system if you are not in a fleet already. Also there are plenty of casual Pug vs Pug matches, which I have been in, that are a lot of fun. In no way does FS hog the queue. There are plenty of Pug vs Pug matches.

As for "lightening up" -- we do go in easy mode quite frequently. The reason we are called "fister" is because we often revert to fighting with just fists, no energy weapons, to lighten up against the opposing team and let them get some shots in. So I do think we deserve some credit for lightening up already and playing in easy mode. Sometimes people in the FS fleet will just sit out the whole game (especially when other people beam out from us, oddly enough). How is that supposed to be fair to us--when someone beams out of a match, so then one of us has to sit out for the whole match. Talk about a waste of time.

What bothers me is that no one really asks why a winning team is doing well, or ask how they can get better. Instead they get flamed and Cryptic gets blamed. This is such a simple MMO, such simple controls and powers and in my opinion, and very easy to learn. We aren't any smarter than the rest of the community. I think we just tried harder to learn and never gave up by beaming out. If you ask me, that's the problem with the STO PVP community.
I'm not flaming you, I'm stating the facts. How would you feel if you constantly lost when you tried your hardest to improve and it happens over and over again?

That's the thing, you guys are too good. And people are trying to acclimate into Ground PVP and they run into you guys. Just tonight the people didn't know who you Sistas were, but they recognized you as a premade and one guy who I found to be really good beamed out. So when people are trying to learn, they are getting knocked down and discouraged.

And this is futher offsetted by the new very aggressive style of STO PvP where basically even non Premades can easily steamroll an opponent. Which is why I suggested some negative aspects to blinding charging in and making GPvP more cautious battling.

So in the end, people think they aren't good enough and just leave, never to Ground PvP ever again. And The Ground Queues go back to being a desert, but this time forever silent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meeowww View Post
What bothers me is that no one really asks why a winning team is doing well, or ask how they can get better. Instead they get flamed and Cryptic gets blamed. This is such a simple MMO, such simple controls and powers and in my opinion, and very easy to learn. We aren't any smarter than the rest of the community. I think we just tried harder to learn and never gave up by beaming out. If you ask me, that's the problem with the STO PVP community.
I know I asked a few of your members, but figured you guys are getting the feel for S4. But I was told sniper rifles are out and shotguns are in. Which pretty much is a given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meeowww View Post
Our idea of fun is playing with friends and learning how to play as a team, this is an MMO, people should be more social and team up together. Actually they do stand a chance if you just read all our forum posts or watch our videos.
I'm not saying its not, just that it plain sucks to be constantly on the receiving end, thats all. Its no different than in Space PvP going against those Premades as well.

If it was possible I would segregate the game into regulars and hardcores. But that isn't going to happen.
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