Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
07-18-2011, 11:54 AM
How bout a miss factor or negative proc? Every skill has a negative proc that scales higher with damage. The more damage you have you either have a higher chance to miss your target for healing or you have a small chance the power just fails and this could go across the board. Example as a tack you hit HYT at 25% damage and you get hit with a negative proc and that launcher malfunctions for the CD. Or you are a Zombie cruiser you are at 50% health try and hit ET3 and it just fails for the cooldown. THe negative proc would be random but the chance of it happens is less with more HP like 1% and tops out at 3% at 25% or less. The only skills it would effect are captain skills due to the nature of the CDs for those skills.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
07-18-2011, 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
How bout a miss factor or negative proc? Every skill has a negative proc that scales higher with damage. The more damage you have you either have a higher chance to miss your target for healing or you have a small chance the power just fails and this could go across the board. Example as a tack you hit HYT at 25% damage and you get hit with a negative proc and that launcher malfunctions for the CD. Or you are a Zombie cruiser you are at 50% health try and hit ET3 and it just fails for the cooldown. THe negative proc would be random but the chance of it happens is less with more HP like 1% and tops out at 3% at 25% or less. The only skills it would effect are captain skills due to the nature of the CDs for those skills.
Avoid randomization and powers failing. Keep it simple, reliable, predictable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
07-18-2011, 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Avoid randomization and powers failing. Keep it simple, reliable, predictable.

So quid pro quo. I feel a miss mechanic would be helpful. IF healing has no missing then really why should weapon fire same thing just a different end of the spectrum.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
07-18-2011, 01:09 PM
I don't like the idea but talking about it can't hurt.

First your weapons only drain energy if you use 2 or more weapons right? So the same should be true for sci/eng powers. You only have your TB active? No drain. You only use ES? No drain and so on. Use HE and TSS at the same time and you have your drain.

Next point weapon powers comes back as soon as the firing cycle of the weapon is over. This would work for powers which have a duration like EWP, TSS... But what should you do with powers that have an instant effect? CPB for example. When should the power come back? Should it be back immediately after you use it? If yes a drain has no use at all. Should the time be taken from the GCD? This would in no way be fair compared to weapon drain until the drain is so low it has no relevance anyway.

Another point should all powers have an energy drain? If yes this has to be true for tac powers too. Not necessarily weapons power but one of the other three. For example attack patterns could drain engine power.


In the end I don't think an aux/shield/energy drain is worth the trouble. I would prefer diminished returns. For example 2 sci vessels use Tachyon beam against you both with an value of 500 (not necessarily a true number). Currently they would drain 1000 shields. In a system with diminished returns they might only drain 900 shields. But then you also have to ask why the same isn't true for normal weapons.
Another idea would be a system with resistance values maybe as passives of the sci skills like Starship Sensor Array. Or if you don't want to involve sci skills use the system we got with PSW. You get hit by a sensor power (SS, VM..) and after the duration is over you get a 10 second immunity (I would prefer a resistance only).



Disclaimer: All numbers used are only intended as example and should in no way be seen as hard data.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
07-18-2011, 01:11 PM
I have to agree with the first post. An energy drain in aux power is needed if ur using an aux based ability and extend shields should cause an energy drain in the shield powers.
And it would be totally logical. I cant understand why creating a large anomaly like gw doesn't consume any energy at all.

And don't u think too that it is absolutely absurd that i don't need to skill space weapons at all an can do about 850k in damage and also heal my teammates for 4.1 Million? Just running at high aux and using all a Sci-vessel can do?

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8250/pugpvp.jpg
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
07-18-2011, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampir888 View Post
I don't like the idea but talking about it can't hurt.

First your weapons only drain energy if you use 2 or more weapons right? So the same should be true for sci/eng powers. You only have your TB active? No drain. You only use ES? No drain and so on. Use HE and TSS at the same time and you have your drain.
Sounds logical

Quote:

Next point weapon powers comes back as soon as the firing cycle of the weapon is over. This would work for powers which have a duration like EWP, TSS... But what should you do with powers that have an instant effect? CPB for example. When should the power come back? Should it be back immediately after you use it? If yes a drain has no use at all. Should the time be taken from the GCD? This would in no way be fair compared to weapon drain until the drain is so low it has no relevance anyway.
Thats why I set some of the power cost high, instant powers would drain like BOL.. It takes a moment for the power to regenerate.. If you continue using powers based on the same system, drain would be slower.

Systems with a duration, would have a drain for the entire duration, and would regenerate once expiring

Quote:

Another point should all powers have an energy drain? If yes this has to be true for tac powers too. Not necessarily weapons power but one of the other three. For example attack patterns could drain engine power.
Well.. I was thinking more of the powers that are based on specific systems.. Eng/Sci/Tac Teams for example doesnt require "power"

Quote:

In the end I don't think an aux/shield/energy drain is worth the trouble. I would prefer diminished returns. For example 2 sci vessels use Tachyon beam against you both with an value of 500 (not necessarily a true number). Currently they would drain 1000 shields. In a system with diminished returns they might only drain 900 shields. But then you also have to ask why the same isn't true for normal weapons.
Another idea would be a system with resistance values maybe as passives of the sci skills like Starship Sensor Array. Or if you don't want to involve sci skills use the system we got with PSW. You get hit by a sensor power (SS, VM..) and after the duration is over you get a 10 second immunity (I would prefer a resistance only).

Disclaimer: All numbers used are only intended as example and should in no way be seen as hard data.
Maybe, maybe not.. The main idea was to add some sort of "cost" for using powers.. Sure.. You can have 5 ships spamming abilities, but they would have lower power for other abilities..

Balancing the various abilities would be a simpler matter..

Example:

Having 3 ships spamming Extend would most likely not be as popular as it is now if all the using ships had -50 shieldpower (thus leaving them more vulnerable).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
07-18-2011, 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
So quid pro quo. I feel a miss mechanic would be helpful. IF healing has no missing then really why should weapon fire same thing just a different end of the spectrum.
Um...

Healing doesn't miss because, last I checked, people aren't actively trying to avoid being healed...

Pilots are trying to evade damage, it makes sense for there to be a miss chance there. Pilots are not trying to evade heals. This really isn't a difficult concept to grasp.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
07-18-2011, 03:48 PM
It wouldn't work for a lot of different reasons.

Weapon systems and BOff powers are definitely not remotely analogous. Weapons have a minimal cooldown. BOff powers, especially science and engineering powers have much longer cooldowns. That is the inherent balancing factor in them right there.

This is the same reason a miss chance on heals is absurd. Weapons miss, so what, you probably hit in the next cycle. Heal misses, and you wait 30-45s till it comes off cooldown.

Those cooldowns are also why power drain would be irrelevant in many cases. So I use CPB 3 and drain 60 power... so? That power will come back long before I can use another CPB 3, or CPB 1/2.

The idea that it should somehow impact survivability via draining power needed for heals, however is highly questionable. Afterall, weapons don't drop your shields every time you fire, so why should a science ship be forced to choose between offense and defense?

But seriously if 3 ships spam heals on one, well gee... those other three are now vulnerable aren't they? Tunnel vision is bad. But that situation would not even be affected by a power drain either.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
07-18-2011, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
It wouldn't work for a lot of different reasons.

Weapon systems and BOff powers are definitely not remotely analogous. Weapons have a minimal cooldown. BOff powers, especially science and engineering powers have much longer cooldowns. That is the inherent balancing factor in them right there.
Yes, but you have a whole lot of abilities and only a couple of weapon skills (two for each type of weapons, beams, cannons, torpedos, mines)
Quote:


This is the same reason a miss chance on heals is absurd. Weapons miss, so what, you probably hit in the next cycle. Heal misses, and you wait 30-45s till it comes off cooldown.
Well.. If youre playing a Eng SC for example you can have atleast 6 hullheals.. Two ETeams, two HEs, ASIF and MW.. Four of these can be used right after eachother.

When in a team, you can have up to 30 heals (assuming a 5 SC group)
Quote:

Those cooldowns are also why power drain would be irrelevant in many cases. So I use CPB 3 and drain 60 power... so? That power will come back long before I can use another CPB 3, or CPB 1/2.
Yes, but you cannot use a full strenght CPB3 followed by a full strenght PSW, followed by HE and TSS.. Yes, the power would come back fast, but spam the powers too fast and youll just weaken each consequtive power.
Quote:

The idea that it should somehow impact survivability via draining power needed for heals, however is highly questionable. Afterall, weapons don't drop your shields every time you fire, so why should a science ship be forced to choose between offense and defense?
Because a Escort does the same.. The very nature of Escorts are offense over defense.. Furthermore, Escorts are highly dependent on power.. The weapons dont drop your shield power, but they do drop your weapons power..

Tell me this: Why should SV and Cruiser captains have *no* reason to consider quality over quantity? Why should they be able to use any ability without cost, and a ship cannot fire two weapons without a cost?
Quote:


But seriously if 3 ships spam heals on one, well gee... those other three are now vulnerable aren't they? Tunnel vision is bad. But that situation would not even be affected by a power drain either.
Ofcourse the situation would be affected, its just a matter of have a cost that will be noticable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
07-18-2011, 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Yes, but you have a whole lot of abilities and only a couple of weapon skills (two for each type of weapons, beams, cannons, torpedos, mines)
Despite that your weapon skills get a ton more use than all your other abilities combined. This is why I've wanted passives on science skills forever. You get so little use out of the skill investment, but that is another topic.

Quote:
Well.. If youre playing a Eng SC for example you can have atleast 6 hullheals.. Two ETeams, two HEs, ASIF and MW.. Four of these can be used right after eachother.

When in a team, you can have up to 30 heals (assuming a 5 SC group)
And? Fact is you sometimes NEED to use them right after each other. The amount of damage weapons can do, despite the power drain on them is extreme, especially in the hands of a tac. I don't think anyone would accept that ET and MW should drain power though, so at best you have 2 heals that might get affected by your suggestion.

As much as the bouncy rubber ball of healing v. damage could stand to be deflated some, I'm never going to go along with an idea that would result in even faster sudden death than is already possible in game.

Quote:
Yes, but you cannot use a full strenght CPB3 followed by a full strenght PSW, followed by HE and TSS.. Yes, the power would come back fast, but spam the powers too fast and youll just weaken each consequtive power.
PSW doesn't scale with aux, so why would it drain aux power on use? HE and TSS are defensive powers and forcing a science ship to choose is most definitely not the same as..

Quote:
Because a Escort does the same.. The very nature of Escorts are offense over defense.. Furthermore, Escorts are highly dependent on power.. The weapons dont drop your shield power, but they do drop your weapons power..
Yes they drop weapons power, but weapons are constantly firing. I've never found it to be an issue in any case.

But that CPB or HE or TSS? They are not up all the time. They are down more often than not. CPB is pretty easily countered by any shield heal on the opponent and doesn't even come close to matching the effectiveness of an escort's weapons for offensive power, especially not for that 60s its on cooldown.

Quote:
Tell me this: Why should SV and Cruiser captains have *no* reason to consider quality over quantity? Why should they be able to use any ability without cost, and a ship cannot fire two weapons without a cost?
They have every reason to consider opportunity cost. If you meet someone who is firing off every heal they have, then you have met someone who is an easy kill, once those wear off. If I have 2 copies of HE, I have 15s between them where I'm naked. That is a full cycle of CRF, and half of APA. If I use my heals now, on myself, I can't heal teammates later and vice versa. If I use them now I can't use them later, that is a very real opportunity cost.

They also very much do consider quality when they set their power. Everyone needs to die to win in PVP. That requires weapon power in most cases. So if they put more power in aux to have better heals and the like, they have worse offense.

The most survivable people aren't spamming everything they have, they are pacing themselves, except in extreme situations where the whole team focus fires them at once. Switch targets, especially if they are getting heals from their team. Their team has used an opportunity cost to heal their ally and not themselves.
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