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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
07-24-2011, 07:37 PM
2 DHC and 1 DC and a Torp works fine for me and i dont run Aux2ID constantly so you dont need 2 of those for sure.....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
07-25-2011, 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
He means instead of Aux2SIF.
Indeed, fixed. Thanks Hale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alendiak
PvE - Sure, cannons are fine.
PvP - If you want to use cannons, I'd suggest using the vorcha refit. Much better turnrate and more tactically focused.
Good to see you've come around finally. That's exactly it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
I personally use a 4 Beam + 3 DHC + 1 Tricobalt configuration on my Negh'var that seems to be a nice balance.
So you have to choose between trying to line something up with your DHCs in front, or your beams in back, and you have a huge coverage gap between the two. That setup is giving you absolutely garbage damage. You post a lot in the PvP section about balance and changes that need to be made in the game, but you have so much to learn about this game before you have the requisite knowledge to be critical and constructive as opposed to the "crazy uncle" personality that even you joke about. This is very simple stuff.

And all of you should be engineers, and every one of you should have a copy of ES3. Maybe one of these days I'll start a thread on how to make an effective build....



This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~WishStone
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
07-26-2011, 03:44 AM
This argument comes up every time someone asks the question "beams or cannons", and there is always a stream of "only use beams". It simply isn't true.

Before flying my Vor'Cha, I flew a Negh'Var with exactly the same weapon layout;

Fore:
2x Dual Cannons
1x Dual Beam Bank
1x Torp launcher

Aft:
2x Beam
1x Turret
1x Torp launcher or additional beam depending on situation

That gives an incredibly high dynamic range of damage, and the burst damage potential is massive. Yes it results in a gap in firing arc, but only if you're incapable of flying.

The question of turn rate is rather moot frankly. 1 turn rate console will give the Negh'Var fairly good turn, and an engineer should be more than capable of maintaining a high aux power setting due to innate engineer settings (off the top of my head, my power is something like 110 weapons, 70 shields, 60 aux). An EPS console also makes any power drain argument pretty moot, especialy for an engineer.

Beams vs Cannons is an argument of sustained DPS vs burst DPS. You can argue which is better until you're blue in the face, but they each have equal advantages and disadvantages.

Flying a Negh'Var with the above stats in PVP, I would almost always be within the top 3 highest DPS, often besting escorts and BoPs, so the argument truly is rather moot.

A Negh'Var with cannons can be far more deadly than a Negh'Var with beams, so long as you know how to fly it.

In fact, if I was a Fed, I'd prefer Klingon cruisers to be using beams simply because its easier to defend against sustained DPS than it is to defend against burst DPS.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
07-26-2011, 04:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiric_hoshi View Post
Fore:
2x Dual Cannons
1x Dual Beam Bank
1x Torp launcher

Aft:
2x Beam
1x Turret
1x Torp launcher or additional beam depending on situation

That gives an incredibly high dynamic range of damage, and the burst damage potential is massive.
Your damage potential isn't anything even close to massive. In fact, that is by far the worst set up out of everyone who has posted in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiric_hoshi View Post
The question of turn rate is rather moot frankly. 1 turn rate console will give the Negh'Var fairly good turn, and an engineer should be more than capable of maintaining a high aux power setting due to innate engineer settings (off the top of my head, my power is something like 110 weapons, 70 shields, 60 aux).
Why would you want to run high aux to increase turn rate? That is sooo season 1. Turn rate is tied to engine power now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiric_hoshi View Post
Beams vs Cannons is an argument of sustained DPS vs burst DPS. You can argue which is better until you're blue in the face, but they each have equal advantages and disadvantages.
No, you ask any good PvPer and they'll all say "beams", a few outliers will suggest single cannons and/or turrets as an alternative, and absolutely nobody will suggest that you mix beams and cannons. After you fly against those PvPers and they kick your butt you wisen up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiric_hoshi View Post
Flying a Negh'Var with the above stats in PVP, I would almost always be within the top 3 highest DPS, often besting escorts and BoPs, so the argument truly is rather moot.
It's not moot at all. Pugs are pathetic. I once out-damaged and out-healed a full fed team combined in a large cap-and-hold. Doesn't mean anything, except that they were horrible. When you take a build like that and compare your damage to the damage of people who actually know how to play a cruiser you'll be at the very bottom of the charts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiric_hoshi View Post
In fact, if I was a Fed, I'd prefer Klingon cruisers to be using beams simply because its easier to defend against sustained DPS than it is to defend against burst DPS.
Burst DPS and sustained DPS from your build are both going to be measly, but no, cruisers are good at sustained DPS so that's what they should focus on. Leave burst DPS to the escorts and you get something that is complementary.


Sigh... listen up people. Cruiser piloting 101 cliff notes with attitude:
  • Fly an engineer. Otherwise get out of the cruiser. A few players can make tact work in a cruiser, but if you need to read this guide to fly a cruiser you definitely aren't one of them, sorry :p
  • Run eight single beams. If you must, run seven beams with a torp.
  • You aren't supposed to be a damage dealer, you are a healer who happens to do damage. If you want to do massive damage fly an escort. If you are one of those strange people who think that cruisers should only focus on healing and not damage (eg. running 25 weapons power and full aux) then for God's sake stop firing. You're giving away borg procs and that is terrible. Spam mines and chroniton torps if you really want to go that route -- but you still shouldn't.
  • The only thing that will ever grace your Cmdr. slot is Extend Shields 3. You also need Aux2Sif2, Engineering Team 3, and Engineering Team 2. You have a bit more play with the lower level level skills. You probably want an RSP, as well as an EPtS. EPtA and EPtW are another two valid skills.
  • If you take an RSP 2 or 3 you are a horribly greedy person. We're talking C-store levels of greed here. Also don't take more than one RSP. Either of these are the equivalent of giving your team the middle finger, and automatically makes you a terrible PvPer and possibly human being as well.
  • In terms of tactical skills, you can never go wrong with FAW (assuming you have good power levels), Delta is another good one. Tactical team can save stupid team mates who don't balance their shields or have a tac team. Beam overload works good if you can coordinate with an escort and augment his spike. Ditto HYT.
  • For science skills you want at least one TSS and one HE. If you have an extra ensign slot, either take another TSS/HE, or a tractor beam, or a science team for debuff clearing. If you take jam sensors, baby Jesus will cry and then probably smite you.
  • Your DPS comes from your power management. Resist the urge to pop EPS power transfer and Nadion at the same time and instead be sure to cycle them. If you run EPtW it will help you. +7 weapons consoles are your friend, more so than EPS consoles in most cases. You want to be running full power to weapons basically all the time.
  • Set up smart power presets. 100 weapons / 50 shields is good for when you need to tank or cast an extend shields. You can also make a power preset that takes power out of weapons and into shields if you have a tough time reaching 125 shields power. You need to be able to get over 100 shields for extend 3 to be potent, and ideally you can get to 125 whenever you need to cast it. Another must setting is 100 weapons / 50 aux for when you need to cast aux-based heals. Get good at switching between these and intuiting when you will need to be at different power levels. Setting up hotkeys is totally recommended.
  • Run the borg set with either covariant or resilient shields. If you don't have the borg set, stop doing PvP immediately and run some STFs. Actually, this goes for any ship or build.
  • Basically, don't try to make the cruiser into something it is not. You are a healer that does good sustained damage. Going away from that only serves to hurt you build and weakens your team.

Now can the bad advice end please?
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
07-26-2011, 05:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Good to see you've come around finally. That's exactly it
Lol, yeah I couldn't exactly ignore the truth.

Vorcha Refit is love.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
07-26-2011, 05:53 AM
[quote=hurleybird;3664243]Your damage potential isn't anything even close to massive. In fact, that is by far the worst set up out of everyone who has posted in this thread.[/qupte]

If that were true, I would not regularly be out-DPS-ing tactical officers in escorts. Case in point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Why would you want to run high aux to increase turn rate? That is sooo season 1. Turn rate is tied to engine power now.
High Aux power allows for a greater defence buff from science skills. Nothing to do with turn rate, it increases my defence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
No, you ask any good PvPer and they'll all say "beams", a few outliers will suggest single cannons and/or turrets as an alternative, and absolutely nobody will suggest that you mix beams and cannons. After you fly against those PvPers and they kick your butt you wisen up.
Mixing beams and cannons allows a non-tactical cruiser captain to effectively mix two tactical abilities that allow for higher DPS.

It makes the setup more dynamic, and gives the ship a greater mix between sustained DPS and burst DPS.

Again the fact that my setup regularly out-DPS's escorts sporting all cannons and cruiser sporting all beams is proof in the pudding.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
It's not moot at all. Pugs are pathetic. I once out-damaged and out-healed a full fed team combined in a large cap-and-hold. Doesn't mean anything, except that they were horrible. When you take a build like that and compare your damage to the damage of people who actually know how to play a cruiser you'll be at the very bottom of the charts.
Considerng I have been PVPing since the game launched, and considering I have never been at the bottom of the list on DPS, I am quite satisfied that I am correct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Burst DPS and sustained DPS from your build are both going to be measly, but no, cruisers are good at sustained DPS so that's what they should focus on. Leave burst DPS to the escorts and you get something that is complementary.
I won't have the same burst DPS 1vs1 as an escort, and I won't have the same sustained DPS 1vs1 to a Cruiser, instead I have a greater mix of the two will allows me to do greater DPS over a single period of time. that is how I almost always top damage charts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Sigh... listen up people. Cruiser piloting 101 cliff notes with attitude:
lots of pointless words
Here is a 101 for you:

Unless you are intending on being somekind of "ultiamte PVPer" you can fly any ship, with any class, with any weapons, with any boff skills, and still be "viable" and "effective".

Since most people don't aim for that, but instead aim for something that they will find both enjoyable and useable, everything you've said has about as much point and use as how many times I took a dump yesterday.

The original question was: What is better on a Negh'Var? Beams or Cannons?

The answer IS NOT beams. The answer is: It depends on how you play, on your class, and whether or not you intend to be some kind of PVPing god.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
07-26-2011, 06:26 AM
On a fortified and slower ship like the Negh'Var, I would prefer beams personally. You're going to do a lot of damage broadsiding and that nad you also have a bit more generous arc. If you run maybe one set of cannons perhaps that would be ok, but I still think they're a waste in this instance. Your turn rate and speed in combat lend this ship to a mostly beam setup.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
07-26-2011, 07:24 AM
As I keep saying, it is not as simple as "beams are always best" and it is certainly not true that beams on a Negh'Var will out-DPS cannons.

It depends entirely on your playstyle and entirely on your role.

If you're the sort of person that likes to kill things yourself, wanting to kill things as quick as possible, and want to be less reliant on other players, then definitely go cannons. I guarantee you a Negh'Var with cannons will kill any ship, PVE or PVP, quicker than a Negh'Var with beams.

If you prefer playing more of a support role, then beams are best as you don't have to keep your attention locked on facing your opponent.

It is also a matter of what you chose for tactical boff abilities - that choice is largely what drives me to mix beams and cannons up front since it means I can run Beam Overload and Canon Rapid Fire - which means with my cannons and dual beam bank up front I can give a substantialy greater volley than if I were just using beams, or just using cannons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
07-26-2011, 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post

Sigh... listen up people. Cruiser piloting 101 cliff notes with attitude:

Now can the bad advice end please?
this is all true if your part of a prebuilt team. but if your like me and like puging cap and holds, basically what ever you like flying, as long as it genuinely is effective will work fine. a lot of the builds posted wont be genuinely effective like huleybird has said.

i find solo dps/tank cruisers to be the funnest thing to fly personally, and love to get in 1v1 fights wile capping points. all my builds are made with dueling in mind, but every time i do an arena im not a whole lot of good to the team because my build isnt anything like the one in that list.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
07-26-2011, 09:48 AM
Even the vorcha with cannons is not optimal. If you want something with a little cruiser tankiness adn escort damage go raptor the ******* child of the escort fleet in this game. With the full borg setup it is quite tanky and can bring the pain also. Also if you do go raptor and miss the horrible the turn rate of the cruiser the raptor will keep you grounded because it is by far the worst turning escort in the game.
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