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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
07-28-2011, 01:15 PM
I would love to see other types of ship types make it up into Endgame, then it would really feel like a Star Trek battle where we may see newer ships as well as older ships. However, Cryptic has a challenge in making older ships viable in endgame without making Tier 5/6 ships obsolete.


As for a newer Tier 5 Light Cruiser, perhaps Cryptic could design something like this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
07-28-2011, 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
Perhaps the Miranda's that we see are "refits" in the truest sense of the word, in that they have been in use well past their expected service life and still need the rollbar for those weapon mounts. Where as the "Suyez" being suggested is only a "refit" in the Da'Kyr or B'Rel sense of having the same hull configuration but built from the ground up with fully modern technology, it did not require a "rollbar" to get, not just the same results, but far better results. Does it strain credibility? Yes. But no more than the B'Rel and Da'Kyr refits.
Well, the game states specifically that the Tier 2 Constitutions in this game are totally new 2409 ships. The Constitution-A was even commissioned recently, and appears in the game. The in game model has distinct differences from a 2270 refit, including phaser strips and sensor pallets. There's no reason we can't say that some Costitution class ships (post refit) survived and were put back in use, or even came to 2409 through time travel, but there is no reason to assume that EVERY Tier 2 Constititution seen in game is a 150 year old relic. Or even that, if it is, it would not be refitted with parts that are readily available from this century's version.

The Mirandas appear to be Mirandas from 2270, even stating in game lore that they are retained for newly appointed Star Fleet captains to be assigned to so they can get a "feel" for command before being promoted to a better ship. However, the Centaur class, while similar to the canon ship, has a much larger saucer, giving it the same proprtions as the Miranda. And the Shi'Kar is a completely new ship. There is no reason to conclude that the Miranda design is not also still under construction, using the new modular design techniques.

Again, what we may have here is two sets of resources for the ships captains can give command of. There is, presumably, a large fleet of existing ships that have been taken out of mothballs because of the Klingon war. These may include Mirandas, Constitutions (or Constitution variants such as the Constellation and the two-nacelled variant, reconstructed using modular parts) Cheyennes, Galaxys, and even newer ships that were decommissioned after 20 or 30 years. There are also shipyards that are turning out new ships using the modular construction techniques, to either resemble the original designs, or offer modifications of them. (Thus, the alternate skins)

What we really have here are two conflicting design goals. One is for realism, for the ships in game to look as if they are consistent with the time scale. The other is to match canon, to LOOK like these ships are actually a part of Star Trek. And the only way for a ship to look canon is for it to LOOK LIKE IT IS OVER 30 YEARS OLD. There are no canon ships from 2409. The canon never reached 2409. So every canon ship that is provided in this game to meet the requirements of players who want to play those ships has to go against the goal of creating a unified setting.

And the problem is totally opposite for the canon in regards to the human designed ships of the Federation, and the other alien races in the canon. For the Federation we have over 150 years of in universe design, spread over 45 years of real time. There have been whole generations of designers, both in canon and in real life, who have all had their own take on Federation design. While there is a certain design lineage from the Constitution class Enterprise through the Galaxy to the Sovereign, there have also been kitbashes that assemble parts that are way off scale in regards to each other. Modellers have thrown together designs that were never intended to be seen clearly or given a clearly definable scale.

On the other hand, the number of canon designs that have been seen for Klingons, Vulcans, Andorians and so on can be counted on the fingers of one hand. They were not the focus of the show, and so much less attention was paid to the evolution of their design. The need for a canon Vulcan ship had to be satisfied by the D'Kyr because there was no 600 meter Vulcan cruiser ever seen at any time but in Enterprise. The B'Rel had to be based on a design from Star Trek III because it continued to be used from that point on in TNG and further. The modellers of the TV shows and movies took shortcuts, and so the devs of this game had to work around those shortcuts.

Now, if you want to explain it, maybe Humans are a wierd species that can't make up their creative minds. Rather than developing a design that works and continuing to use it, they keep bashing together kit parts in order to satisfy some creative urge. Something Vulcans find illogical or Klingons consider weak. That may be why ultimately it was their shipyards that came up with the concept of modular design. Alternately, maybe the 100 years of Star Fleet development echoed the first 100 years the Vulcans and Klingons went through, so that by the time they got to the D'Kyr or the B'Rel is was their version of the Galaxy or the Intrepid, the culmination of the design, with only tweaks and variations needed from that point on.

Still, the Constitution design WORKED, for 30 years it was the only game in town. (Although that was because the FX technology in 1960 was so limited they could only make a handful of models) With the ability to tweak any design at will why not go back to some of the older designs?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
07-28-2011, 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blayyde
And the Shi'Kar is a completely new ship. There is no reason to conclude that the Miranda design is not also still under construction, using the new modular design techniques.
This causes the Tier system to make no sense at all. Looking at it from a technical specifications standpoint the Shi'Kar is a ship about the size of the Da'Kyr, if it's being produced with modern technology why on earth is it such a fragile, under armed walk over?

I mean, your own suggestion, that the wealth of different ship shapes and sizes we see from Starfleet has more to do with a creative urge or even the gradual tweaking of engineering philosophy is about the best explanation we've got for the Vulcans producing a Da'Kyr 200 years after their hey day and it just about admits that Tiers have no place here. The Defiant is "better" than the Sabre because... you needed a ship to obtain at Captain.

I feel a headache coming on. But before I go have a nice lay down let me ask, since you've obviously put alot of thought into this. Why are people still using the 'too old to be Tier-5' argument if ships like the Shi'Kar are modern designs and ships like the Miranda are still being manufactured to modern standards?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
07-28-2011, 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
This causes the Tier system to make no sense at all. Looking at it from a technical specifications standpoint the Shi'Kar is a ship about the size of the Da'Kyr, if it's being produced with modern technology why on earth is it such a fragile, under armed walk over?
I think we have a miscommunication. The Shi'Kar is an alternate skin for the Miranda. Interestingly enough, in case you were referring to a canon ship, I went and looked it up on Memory Alpha, and there was a USS ShirKahr, a Miranda class ship, destroyed in the Dominion War.

Quote:
The Defiant is "better" than the Sabre because... you needed a ship to obtain at Captain.
Unfortunately, that is the way I see the so-called "Tier" system. It's like getting a +4 battle axe at level 20 and a +5 sword at level 25. There's nothing that inherently makes the sword better than the battle axe, the axe is actually bigger and should do more damage, but a levelling system is tacked onto it to make the old level 20 equipment obsolete.

Personally, I feel that the Tier system should only indicate when you can pilot a given ship, and your rank determines how powerful it is. But that's clearly not going to be acceptable to those people who believe that a captain cannot defeat another captain while commanding a ship half the other ship's size.

Quote:
Why are people still using the 'too old to be Tier-5' argument if ships like the Shi'Kar are modern designs and ships like the Miranda are still being manufactured to modern standards?
Well, one possibility is that for most people, since the ships look like they are canon, then they are canon, and thus are whatever age the canon says they are. It is difficult to have to continue to explain in game details that are not immediately obvious every single time the discussion comes up.

Another possibility is that there are simply people who hate the limited special effects of the TOS and TMP eras and feel that it is totally incompatible with the more recent shows in the Star Trek franchise. That is, even if you can demonstrate that a Tier 1 TOS Constitution is just a "sleeper", with a 2266 shell surrounding a 2409 ship, the ship is just "ugly".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
07-28-2011, 05:28 PM
2 thumb up for high tier ligt cruiser but it should have it limits of course
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