Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
07-30-2011, 09:41 PM
Still it doesn't change what I have said. If no one plays Tribble, then bugs can get through that the devs don't know about. I never heard of a bugless patch that had any major change in it. So the devs can't catch them all and the ones they know about might take weeks to fix. Do the devs delay the patch until they fix the bug or do they release the patch and work on fixing it? Either way will upset players.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 12
07-30-2011, 09:42 PM
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...50&postcount=4

Quote:
Originally Posted by starkaos View Post
Still it doesn't change what I have said. If no one plays Tribble, then bugs can get through that the devs don't know about. I never heard of a bugless patch that had any major change in it. So the devs can't catch them all and the ones they know about might take weeks to fix. Do the devs delay the patch until they fix the bug or do they release the patch and work on fixing it? Either way will upset players.
Actually, the point is that people are on tribble and people do point out many of the problems. In fact, a Dev in the link above speak specifically to that point.
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# 13
07-31-2011, 01:02 AM
It's impossible to find every bug that a patch may introduce, because of that, you will always have bugs in an MMO. Maybe in the future this will change, but right now that's how it is. What does this mean?

It means that even when some of us players test Cryptics patches on the test server, there will be bugs we either don't find, or bugs that will be introduced once it hits the live server.

And yes, I have been hit by the disconnect problem, but it doesn't bother me at all because I get this problem in other games to - again - not unique to cryptic at all. All MMO's have this issue, either because of some issue with the game server that can't be locked down or becuase of an interruption in your connection TO the server.

Quote:
That alone is keeping us out of the game and really should have been caught in Q&A. It's an obvious point of failure with even minimal interaction.
This bug you are referring I never found when S4 was on tribble, I also asked a few friends of mine and they didn't find it either. So either it was around and it just wasn't caught,. Or it appeared after the patch went to Live, IF this is the case: what this means is that Q&A had nothing to do with this, because at the time it was under Q&A the bug didn't exist.

This what I'm talking about, just because you find a bug on Live doesn't mean that bug existed on the test server or existed back when the patch was in Q&A. Patches not only fix stuff, but also break stuff. I know this very well from playing online for a very long time..
Lt. Commander
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# 14
07-31-2011, 01:05 AM
Quote:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...50&postcount=4



Actually, the point is that people are on tribble and people do point out many of the problems. In fact, a Dev in the link above speak specifically to that point.
Keep in mind he's talking specifically for the Tribble Test Weekend that's a stress test.

It doesn't change that reported bugs still go to Holodeck. I figure it's simply because they have more or less fixed schedules with certain build releases, and if there is some new stuff in, some old bugs fixed, and some new bugs introduced, that patch will go live. The new bugs will be fixed at a later date. I can kinda live with the base idea - "sorry, we got this new patch, it has to be released now, because it has stuff we want to put online now. We know there are some new bugs. We'll fix them later." The problem is that "Later" is sometimes _really_ late. And that's something they need to fix.

In pratice, there seems to be a 4-step release process. 1) Internal Testing. 2) Tribble Testing. 3) Holodeck Testing. 4) Holodeck "Release". But the 3rd step is not an "official" step. It just happens, and I think that leads to weeks or months where a bug or broken item stands.
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# 15
07-31-2011, 08:24 AM
I can't imagine that anyone would be so silly as to expect perfection but there is nothing wrong with having higher standards. Some stuff is going to slip by as conditions are always changing. My point is that putting the blame squarely on the players for not using the Tribble server to do testing and file reports is a bit of a cop out.

People were there. They tested, they reported, and things went through anyway. The Dev himself said that there are things that they knew about but pushed live anyway. That's all good and well, Im' not even questioning their reasoning here.

We all know what they say about the plans of mice and men.
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# 16 My humble opinion
07-31-2011, 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
I can't imagine that anyone would be so silly as to expect perfection but there is nothing wrong with having higher standards. Some stuff is going to slip by as conditions are always changing. My point is that putting the blame squarely on the players for not using the Tribble server to do testing and file reports is a bit of a cop out.

People were there. They tested, they reported, and things went through anyway. The Dev himself said that there are things that they knew about but pushed live anyway. That's all good and well, Im' not even questioning their reasoning here.

We all know what they say about the plans of mice and men.
^ I agree, and I have tested and reported bugs previously, on Tribble and otherwise.

However, clearly somewhere in the process that Cryptic has set-up currently, known bugs (Some of them having a extremely negative impact on being able to enjoy the product we pay for) still make it onto the live server.

The question here is, can this process be improved upon? How quickly can it be improved upon? And finally, how do some of these major and reported bugs make it past Quality Assurance?

I have lost count of how many bugs I have run into while simply playing the game. I pay to enjoy playing a game, not spend that time reporting bug after bug after bug. The process which Cryptic currently uses to push out content is virtually consistent in delivering one thing: bugs!

Cryptic has consistenly followed a policy of OPUD: OverPromise and Under-Deliver.
I would prefer the opposite, along with a process that can more reliably deliver content or updates, as bug-free as possible!

As a lifetimer, and a big spender in the C-Store, I hope to see improvement soon!

My 2 EC,

Derek
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# 17
07-31-2011, 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starkaos View Post
Do the devs delay the patch until they fix the bug or do they release the patch and work on fixing it? Either way will upset players.
Here's the most common sense reason I myself can come up with for fixing the bug first and then releasing the patch:

When a patch is on the test server, the game itself is still currently live. The live version of the game at that point is working generally (not in all cases, but in most) fine and bug free. Because it still works at that point in time, I think it's much more logical to leave the live version alone, let the players continue to play a less buggy live version and get the bugs on test fixed.

The only players that get upset are the ones that are impatient and want the new patch right then and there. But see, from a financial standpoint, those players are upset and impatient, yes ... absolutely ... BUT are still hooked on the game. They want the new stuff. And will put up with waiting longer because of how hooked they are.

The current protocol is to stick to a schedule (which is odd, since they continually move their own schedule back anyways) ... and push buggy stuff live. Which then upsets the impatient players because they can't play the new stuff without having the bugs. AND upsets the patient players because the working game they were happily continuing to play while waiting for the new update, is now bugged and harder to play.

Keep in mind, I'm mainly focusing on major gameplay impacting bugs here. Things that break teaming. Break queues. Break exploration clusters. Continually cause crashes to desktop. The kinds of bugs that have made it live with each and every major season update. And the kinds of bugs that make playing the game difficult so the entire playerbase has to wait weeks (sometimes months) for that to be fixed to get back to the simplicity of just playing the game again.

I'm not really talking about walk animations at this point. I'm talking about big bugs.

But the way they do it now, both walk animation bugs and queue breaking bugs get ushered out to live server. Because they won't hold it back and fix the big bugs. They'll send it live and fix it after.

It's just, to me at least, not a very logical way of "testing" their updates.

To me ... holding it back and making sure it can go live without those major bugs ... is a much better way of doing it. It keeps the status quo of functional gameplay safer. The only cost is it increases the impatience of some players. But I say that's still not a loss since those players are very much tied into the game and are loyal and will love the stuff even after a couple weeks longer wait.

A good example of this in terms of Season 4 is ... I'd have been impatient about waiting longer but man it'd have been so much more worth my time if they'd have kept it back longer, and then been able to release new ground combat AND the DOFF system live at the same time and NOT break queues and the like.

That would have been a much better patch to move forward than what they did move forward.
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# 18
07-31-2011, 10:58 AM
For all the talk of how season 4 should have been pushed back, there was a fairly large wave of "where is the new content?!!" posts this week, and i'm sure next week, and every week after that until s4 FEs actually hit. Unfortunately who knows where that will be.

I don't think Cryptic fixing every reported player bug is a critical issue, although they definitely missed some bad stuff, like the Foundry, queues, and the like. A funky walk cycle was an animation issue, I wouldn't even consider that a bug.

However, for all the defending of Cryptic I've done (mostly because I've been in the trenches as a game dev), I will say this: they need to get their s- together. The disconnection issues going on right now on July 31st need to be fixed. Foundry needs to be fixed. They've managed to fix most of the major issues from Season 4 but they definitely still have some pretty critical problems on their hands.
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