Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 PvP Balance TOP 3 issues
08-01-2011, 02:20 PM
Alright we have a few of these threads started lately, that all seem to point in the wrong direction.

I would like to call on some of the high xp fleets and players to please help me hash out some of the true issues with PvP. I am going to list my top 3... and I would love it if everyone would do the same. (not talking about any current exploits here just game mechanics)

Let me start by saying I see each captain type as fairly equal at the moment. Sci has SNB which is very powerful... engi has just a crazy onslaught of heals and resists that add up... tac has crazy burst dps potential.
The ships... out side of a few that might have slight advantages to particular tactics... the balance isn't bad one on one.

So I would say balance one on one is not really much of an issue out side of small tweeks.

Group balance. This is the one area I see as needing some tweeking.

However lets discuss it.... here are my top 3

1) Fleet Skills. Sci fleet particularly is out of wack in my view. I think it should have a hard cap at around 25%, seeing as it effects the entire team. Tac fleet should not stack... Engi Fleet wouldn't need a buff if the other 2 had those issues fixed.

2) Ability Stacking. I don't think any skill should be able to apply more then once. Meaning if I help a friend out with my copy of TSS 2 and they have TSS 3 running... only the TSS 3 should apply. Only one copy of any buff should be allowed to apply at once.

3) Mulitple Skill Chains. I also think the way diminishing returns work should be looked at. The hull values work well... the shield values are suspect... the tac values could also be looked at.

In my view a correction to fleet skills... the removal of stacking... and an increase in diminishing returns for shield and tactical skills... would balance out Team PvP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
08-01-2011, 02:34 PM
I fully agree with the OP. What a feeeeeeeeeeling ...lala....

I have no clue about ground balance, i hardly ever get around to do it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
08-01-2011, 02:41 PM
I don't know. I want to say that you are on to something. However, with the recent realization that you have only been here since a week after beta so too comes a bit of skepticism.

Science Fleet certainly needs some adjustment. I do think that it was a good move to make Shields more important in this game. You can have yo yo shields with energy heals and resistance stacking but yo yo hull healing is out of control. Science Fleet just does the shield bit too well.

Many many moons ago, the game took healing and resistances more seriously, which I still think was a good idea but it's one that went too far. I'm curious about the effects of removing stacking of those heals. It would require more attention and better coordination as well as a more varied load out (which is actually a good thing). How would it effect damage buff stacking? Would it need to?

I think one important thing to remember is that while everyone wants to live, eventually someone has to die. The improvement to healing was a good thing but it was too good. Eliminating the stacking of like abilities would probably help but I'm curious to see whether it would be enough or too much?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
08-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
Alright we have a few of these threads started lately, that all seem to point in the wrong direction.

I would like to call on some of the high xp fleets and players to please help me hash out some of the true issues with PvP. I am going to list my top 3... and I would love it if everyone would do the same. (not talking about any current exploits here just game mechanics)

Let me start by saying I see each captain type as fairly equal at the moment. Sci has SNB which is very powerful... engi has just a crazy onslaught of heals and resists that add up... tac has crazy burst dps potential.
The ships... out side of a few that might have slight advantages to particular tactics... the balance isn't bad one on one.

So I would say balance one on one is not really much of an issue out side of small tweeks.

Group balance. This is the one area I see as needing some tweeking.

However lets discuss it.... here are my top 3

1) Fleet Skills. Sci fleet particularly is out of wack in my view. I think it should have a hard cap at around 25%, seeing as it effects the entire team. Tac fleet should not stack... Engi Fleet wouldn't need a buff if the other 2 had those issues fixed.

2) Ability Stacking. I don't think any skill should be able to apply more then once. Meaning if I help a friend out with my copy of TSS 2 and they have TSS 3 running... only the TSS 3 should apply. Only one copy of any buff should be allowed to apply at once.

3) Mulitple Skill Chains. I also think the way diminishing returns work should be looked at. The hull values work well... the shield values are suspect... the tac values could also be looked at.

In my view a correction to fleet skills... the removal of stacking... and an increase in diminishing returns for shield and tactical skills... would balance out Team PvP.
If i spend 50$ in the cstore do you think someone at cryptic replys?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
08-01-2011, 03:18 PM
Multi stacks from the same power yeah I don't like this one either.

If it isn't allowed for Target Sub anymore, it shouldn't be allowed for heals either.

Honestly I think that's my biggest gripe, phaser procs aside.

Phaser Procs, I hate them if it wasn't okay for VM to remove someone's shields it shouldn't be okay for the easiest weapons to acquire in the game, and skill into, to be able to do it, willy nilly, often multiple times in a row. Similarly their proc rate (I haven't sat down and tested it yet on a pure test basis) I suspect is also broken, because even from one target hitting you phaser procs seem to happen alot particularly with Beams.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6 3 main thing that effect PVP
08-01-2011, 03:21 PM
Your tip toeing around some major issues.

1. Cloak and Battle cloak (These are huge game changers since klinks ge cloak early and there is very few Fed abilitys for cloak detection) I mean have you ever played a Klink vs. Klink game. Who decloaks first?

2. High level PVP is worthless its now a PVE The last 3 Vice adm. PVP I played I walked away with 5 equip drops. Between fleet spwans, and fighters. Its also just extra data that slows down the game and since targeting is pretty worthless its just not fun

3. Wolf Pack targeting this were the PVE game system destroys PVP since the in game ratio for normal play is:

1 Science, Assault, Cruiser = 3 light cruisers
1 Science, Assault, Cruiser = 1 Science, Assault, Cruiser

The Maximum amount of ships the greatest built star ship can handle is 3 ships or 9 light cruisers.

So having any more than a 3 on 3 battle is just pointless.

Its a huge flaw that Cryptic overlooked. With any PVP game the first thing you look at is 1 vs 1. Once 1 vs 1is nice and balanced you go to 2 vs 2 and so forth until you have viable multiplay

Cryptic just jumped in and said will just make a massive 6 vs 6 system, and see how it does. Well it flopped! Had they done PVP tests instead of jumping right into massive game play we would have system that worked.

You have to fix the whole PVP system before you even go into micro managing skills. fixing a few skills is not going solve these bigger problems with PVP.

No one wants to do a lag filled PVP that have 6 cloaked klingons who have all the time in the world to set up on the herd of fed ships. They all target one ship blow it away then deploy there screen of PVE fighters and junk so you cant target them while they continue to target ships in a wolfpack fasion.

It just dosen't work. The only way to fix it quickly is to shrink the battles down to 3 on 3 less game data less lag less PVE ships less is so much better right now.
You also have to keep in mind that PVP use to be much worse so any changes they make would be a 2nd revisions and right now new PVE game content is taking center stage.

I have been doing pvp since Doom. So I like to consider myself a expert on the subject. This PVP system is better than when the game was released but is still a stinker.

If you do some 1vs1 using the chalenge system with some of your friends or fleet buddies your going to a lot more fun.

zevermoon
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
08-01-2011, 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
1) Fleet Skills. Sci fleet particularly is out of wack in my view. I think it should have a hard cap at around 25%, seeing as it effects the entire team. Tac fleet should not stack... Engi Fleet wouldn't need a buff if the other 2 had those issues fixed.

2) Ability Stacking. I don't think any skill should be able to apply more then once. Meaning if I help a friend out with my copy of TSS 2 and they have TSS 3 running... only the TSS 3 should apply. Only one copy of any buff should be allowed to apply at once.

3) Mulitple Skill Chains. I also think the way diminishing returns work should be looked at. The hull values work well... the shield values are suspect... the tac values could also be looked at.

In my view a correction to fleet skills... the removal of stacking... and an increase in diminishing returns for shield and tactical skills... would balance out Team PvP.
Hit it on the head with the stacking.

The worst has always been Tacticals in Space and ground, where you click on 4 or 5 buffs and can easily kill another player. Especially when cloaked and having the cloaking attack bonus added. And when they redid the system to have more of a focus on Teamwork, all that did was make Premades tougher and PuGs easier to defeat.

Cryptic needs to make Buffs unstackable, especially when it comes to heals like Hazzard Emitters. Debuffs in space need to limited to the strongest one, and debuffs on the ground should be limited to only one, else there is way a person is going to survive. Like stacking Surpressive Fire with Fuze or Gravity Root.

This goes with Power Cells, they shouldn't boost damage given how players barely have any HPs anymore. Have Power Cells reduce the cooldown than damage boosting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
08-01-2011, 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zevermoon View Post
Your tip toeing around some major issues.

1. Cloak and Battle cloak (These are huge game changers since klinks ge cloak early and there is very few Fed abilitys for cloak detection) I mean have you ever played a Klink vs. Klink game. Who decloaks first?

2. High level PVP is worthless its now a PVE The last 3 Vice adm. PVP I played I walked away with 5 equip drops. Between fleet spwans, and fighters. Its also just extra data that slows down the game and since targeting is pretty worthless its just not fun
Good thoughts. Thats the point what is it that annoys people.... Just FYI though if you havn't done any KvK in awhile. Its the best game play in the game right now. The best matches I have been in to date have all been KvK. We don't have all cloaking ships anymore.

I agree with you one the PvE junk... scorps should never have existed and Photo Fleet could use some sort of change. I agree with ya.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
08-01-2011, 04:05 PM
1. Science Fleet should be brought in-line with tac and engineer fleet.

2. I am tempted to suggest that maybe APB and FoMM apply a debuff to shields as well as hull before we "nerf" shield resist stacking? Its a thought at least. Sometimes easier to give then to take away....plus the pve crowd will be less prone to cry.

3. And I still would like to see extend shields re-worked. I would suggest lowering the range, applying some type of "penalty" to the caster while it is being channeled, and/ or making it go away if the range between caster and target is exceeded.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
08-01-2011, 04:12 PM
I both agree and disagree with you Husanak.

I definitely think that you're right about the ability stacking, but I'm not to sure about the rest though.

The problem remains the the same as it was a year ago, the ships themselves are unbalanced, most notably in the area of cruiser/BC vs. escort/raptor, and while there have been some changes made like defense stats, the underlying problem remains. I know that some people believe that looking at the game from a 1v1 perspective is stupid, but in reality the game has so few classes and combinations that you must look at it from a 1v1 point a view, then you can begin to build a real sense of balance between the ship classes.

From there the question becomes one of intent (for lack of a better phrase), meaning that if all things were equal in a solo fight, who is supposed to have the advantage over who and why.....
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