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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
08-08-2011, 09:50 PM
I have to disagree with the costume idea. Each ship should have unique traits, and hopefully ones that isn't limited to consoles or BO slots.

Right now, I feel that the current idea of refitting ships up to 2 Tiers sounds reasonable, older ships like the TOS era really shouldn't be around in the newer battles, because they were decomissioned. So Pre-TNG era ships like the Constellation should be refitable to at most Tier 5, being somewhat still viable. Of course, Cryptic would have to redo where the Nova, Olympic, Sabre, and the Akira get revamped and replaced with Pre-TNG era ships like the Freedom, New Orleans, and the Ambassador.

Perhaps we should make a thread in the shipyard forum and discuss what ship should be at what Tier.



Right now, I think if Cryptic put in a Lt JG Rank and replace that as Tier 2, put in some new content to space things out, its possible things might not be as tricky as they are now.l
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
08-09-2011, 03:57 AM
You can simply this some more,

how about:

Tiers are gone. Instead you have generations, you start the game with a generation 0 ship, your training vessel whatever. After the tutorial you then get assigned your first actual ship, generation 1.
Generation here means developement progress, nx-1 is a gen 0 ship, conny would be 1, refit conny2, ambssador 3, gal 4, sovy 5 for example.

So now you are in command of your ship and rank up, you get the choice of switching to a newer ship design, higher generation, or upgrade your current ship with newer tech, raise its generation. Each generation raise costs more and more. merits, crafting materials etc. This should balance out gen1 ships overflowing end level games, unless the player really wants that ship and nothing else. like +1gen costs normal, +2 costs 2x, +3 4time, +4 costs8 times as much.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
08-09-2011, 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
This way, you would design it so that mission XP scales but content doesn't and you'd use have to use lower tier ships for lower tier mission replay.
You want to require players to change ships every time they play a certain level mission rescaling the XP, but not the enemies? I think adding a point system to control the use and number of pets (if there ever will be) is a great idea. However, telling Capt. Picard he needs to give up the Enterprise and use the Stargazer to fight the Gorn is not. I would much rather scale the enemies than need to change ships.

They already require player to give up ships they may like in order to be competitive in the next rank and to me this sounds worse. It just goes in the other direction for a double whammy. Perhaps I am misunderstanding how this will change the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
I have to disagree with the costume idea. Each ship should have unique traits, and hopefully ones that isn't limited to consoles or BO slots.
Appearances options work fine in other games, they do not require changing equipment stats to implement. Nearly everything else in the game is customizable. The only real argument against appearance options (after looking at the way the game currently is) is during PVP, so players know what they are fighting and that makes sense.

The game does not have a coherent sense of what it is. It seems to want to be everyone's Star Trek. It has TOS, ENT, TNG Uniforms, a NX class T1 ship, Borg stuff hanging of every other ship, glowing TRON ships and you disagree with the costume idea in a Star Trek MMO that could be named STAR TREK HALLOWEEN ONLINE. There already are some costume ships available in game anyway.

Since there are many ideas are being thrown around and the Devs are all about adding new consoles to the game. How about a Ship upgrade system based on console slots. Each tier ship has a specific number of useable console slots. In order to upgrade a T2 ship to a T3 ship the player must acquire three different T3 upgrade consoles.

If I want a T2 Nova at T3
  • One T3 Tactical upgrade console = 1 Tac LT slot + 1 forward weapon slot.
  • One T3 Engineering upgrade console = 1 Eng Lt slot and increases hull strength.
  • One T3 Science upgrade console. = 1 Sci Lt and 1 ensign slot
There is a penalty (loss of a console slot) to upgrade a ship to the next tier. I am not sure there should be a penalty perhaps the console upgrades should add the appropriate number of console slots for the tier being upgraded. The ship keeps other basic stats like crew and turn rate. There is no real reason to upgrade T4 ships to T5 at the moment.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
08-09-2011, 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaw View Post
Appearances options work fine in other games, they do not require changing equipment stats to implement. Nearly everything else in the game is customizable. The only real argument against appearance options (after looking at the way the game currently is) is during PVP, so players know what they are fighting and that makes sense.

The game does not have a coherent sense of what it is. It seems to want to be everyone's Star Trek. It has TOS, ENT, TNG Uniforms, a NX class T1 ship, Borg stuff hanging of every other ship, glowing TRON ships and you disagree with the costume idea in a Star Trek MMO that could be named STAR TREK HALLOWEEN ONLINE. There already are some costume ships available in game anyway.

Since there are many ideas are being thrown around and the Devs are all about adding new consoles to the game. How about a Ship upgrade system based on console slots. Each tier ship has a specific number of useable console slots. In order to upgrade a T2 ship to a T3 ship the player must acquire three different T3 upgrade consoles.

If I want a T2 Nova at T3
  • One T3 Tactical upgrade console = 1 Tac LT slot + 1 forward weapon slot.
  • One T3 Engineering upgrade console = 1 Eng Lt slot and increases hull strength.
  • One T3 Science upgrade console. = 1 Sci Lt and 1 ensign slot
There is a penalty (loss of a console slot) to upgrade a ship to the next tier. I am not sure there should be a penalty perhaps the console upgrades should add the appropriate number of console slots for the tier being upgraded. The ship keeps other basic stats like crew and turn rate. There is no real reason to upgrade T4 ships to T5 at the moment.
This isn't two seperate models like the Sovereign and the Galaxy, skins are like the Soveriegn, Nobel, Majestic. What we need is ships being more individual than just turn rates and BO slots.

And given what we were revealed regarding programing, I don't think it's possible to implement such an idea.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
08-09-2011, 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
This isn't two seperate models like the Sovereign and the Galaxy, skins are like the Soveriegn, Nobel, Majestic. What we need is ships being more individual than just turn rates and BO slots.

And given what we were revealed regarding programing, I don't think it's possible to implement such an idea.
Do you understand what vanity/appearance options are in games? In an example for STO, a player would pick their stat ship like a Galaxy Class and then pick an appearance from another ship that they have like a Cheyenne Class. The end product is the ship looks like a Cheyenne Class, but is really a Galaxy Class. It would be similar to how ship holo-emitters that are already in game work just without the holo-emitter effect.

What idea is it you think cannot be implemented?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
08-09-2011, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idali
You can simply this some more,

how about:

Tiers are gone. Instead you have generations, you start the game with a generation 0 ship, your training vessel whatever. After the tutorial you then get assigned your first actual ship, generation 1.
Generation here means developement progress, nx-1 is a gen 0 ship, conny would be 1, refit conny2, ambssador 3, gal 4, sovy 5 for example.

So now you are in command of your ship and rank up, you get the choice of switching to a newer ship design, higher generation, or upgrade your current ship with newer tech, raise its generation. Each generation raise costs more and more. merits, crafting materials etc. This should balance out gen1 ships overflowing end level games, unless the player really wants that ship and nothing else. like +1gen costs normal, +2 costs 2x, +3 4time, +4 costs8 times as much.
This is one thing I was thinking about as well. Really, I would like it if nacelles here became the identifier like shoulders are in ******** and each rank had its own basic nacelle style, maybe excluding canon ships.

Or if refitting low tier ships came with a mandatory nacelle upgrade.

So you could have a Tier 5 Connie but it didn't include TMP or TOS nacelles and instead had, say, the Excalibur nacelles, some Galaxy-style nacelles, and an Enterprise-F style set of nacelles. So you could fly any ship at T5 but... The nacelles will indicate that it's era appropriate.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
08-10-2011, 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashur1
Seem to be contradicting design philosophies at work here for certain. And they could still sell variants of existing ships in the c-store, not more powerful but just different. Consoles should probably be sold separately.
Be careful what you wish for.....Cryptic seems to be going for the Money's Paw approach to wish granting when it comes to ships. Compare the Nova to the Rhode Island and apply that design philosophy to all ship levels and what do you have?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
yeah, but no.

The tier system works fine folks. Let me express, direct from Logan and Dan why the tier system is set how it is.

"Wolf in sheep's clothing"

our hero's did a great job in the ships they had vs the same type of ships equal to them and a small part above them. In game terms the tier ranking system will keep the "wolf in sheeps clothing" from being exploited. Like that or not it has been express many many times, even to the point WishStone herself spelled it out for folks and just said "no", that they dont know how else to state it.

Sure the idea is a great one, prob is, in game it would be impossible to enforce or to keep the "wolf in sheeps clothing" from appearing. T5 connie running amok with the armor and firepower of a Sovvy? no, no, no, a thousand times no team.

Folks tell me I'd love to have my connie as a T5, or my Nova, or X ship. I point out to them, hey those exist already, the Connie is called the Sovereign, the Nova is called the Intrepid, etc, so forth. Like it or not, this just opens a huge can of worms that has been discussed to death folks.

While I myself do not agree with some ships in the tier structure and in their placement, Having an open tier structure is not how the combat mechanic is set, and having a complete overhaul of it isn't an appeasing idea.

I can run any ship as a VA/LG (on my multiple characters) but to turn what we have now up on its ear and shake it? I would rather not.

Even if we are talking holograms of those ships we love so much, still for the game itself I still have to say no, i would be completely against it, simply due to the two facts
  • Wolf in sheep's clothing
  • complete overhaul in space combat mechanic.

Hey, you dont have to agree, and some of the thoughts presented here are great unto themselves. However we still have to play in the sandbox, and that means the tier structure is the best way to keep ships straighten out. Each game has that tier structure, yes even EVE, why do you think they call some "support" and others Battleships? that is a tier structure.

If you want to fly the nova or any other low level tier ship, hey cool, wear it out, but understand the tier structure itself is the limiting line that defines those ships in this game and its abilities.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
08-10-2011, 09:34 AM
Sadly, the tier system seems to be something that Cryptic is strongly wedded to.

Its a shame, since dropping it could open up all sorts of options, both for the players and the developers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
08-10-2011, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
See... I think it would have been cool if they had just has, say 12-20 ships available at Lt. Commander (with an expanded 10 level tutorial that prepares players for the choice and variety)
I am starting to agree with this. Partly because the rest of the game works this way - on a per-faction basis, the ships you encounter the first time will always be the same ships you encounter.

There'd need to be a lot of work done to make the ships that should be weaker in raw power still relevant. Some, like definitely the Light Cruisers, should be squadron-based gameplay - also like they're balanced when not in PC hands. Some could be rounded out with special abilities and focused roles. The most broadly and outright powerful - the current T5, with some exceptions - would just get the big numbers as now.

Space combat 2.0, basically? Probably pretty far off.
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