Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
This has probably been said before, but with so many threads "This ship needs a T5 refit." I thought I would make a simple proposal.

Instead of making a T5 everything why not just make the ships level with the players?

Offer the different classes of ship independent of player level and have them gain better attributes, more weapons slots, more consoles and such each time the player is promoted. This way fans of a particular ship class can have the craft throughout their career and get all the enjoyment from flying it for an extended period of time.

If you really want to be greedy offer two or three basic ships for free and sell the rest in the C-store. I don't think most of us would mind paying a bit for the in demand classes like Saber, Akira, Nova, etc. and since it seems that C-store is going to be the way to get the better items anyways it would fit with the overall plan.

I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion, in fact it would probably prove quite popular.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
08-12-2011, 12:03 PM
I like this idea, but whether the IP masters at CBS will allow it - that's the question.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
08-12-2011, 12:40 PM
This too is a very popular and oft posted suggestion.

Of the dozen or so ways people have come up with to "fix" the ship tier system, I'm pretty much supportive of most of them. This one included.

The bottom line for many players is they want to play their favorite ship while they play. And this idea facilitates that. As do a lot of the other ideas.

The way system is now ends up with only a few people playing their favorite ship at the end-game. And when others suggest that things change so they too can get in on that kind of fun, they get shot down. It's kind of, I dunno, predictable and disappointing all at the same time.

Like hey, I'm super duper glad that people who love the Excelsior get to fly it at T5. Gratz to you all. But what's up with all the hate for people who want to fly a Nova or an Olympic or an NX at the same tier? They just want to have the same kind of fun others have. It's kind of the core and central reason people bought the game in the first place, right?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
08-12-2011, 12:47 PM
This is a common suggestion, along with an upgrade system.

However, keep in mind that autolevelling is not as easy as it sounds. Increasing a ship's hull, as with the shuttles, is a simple matter. However, the progression of weapon slots from one Tier to another does not follow a constant progression. There is usually one additional slot, but not always. Cruisers gain two slots between Tier 2 and Tier 3. Shps usually gain a forward slot and then an aft slot. Escorts, however, gain the fore slot "first". Science ships get NO additional slot at Tier 5. So how do you work all that into an automated, consistent system?

LIkewise, you also have to progress the number of console slots. And you have to progess the number of Bridge Officers. This isn't really a problem for Tier 4 and below, the progression is pretty consistent. But at Tier 5, where you have "hybrid" classes, this hybrid status comes from the BO layout. So there are essentially 3 BO layouts at Tiers 1-4, and 9 BO layouts at Tier 5. That is, Cruiser, Cruiser/Tactical, Cruiser/Science, Escort, Escort/Engineering, Escort/Science, Science, Science/Tactical and Science/Engineering.

And there are additional variations, the Sovereign, Dreadnaught, and Excelsior are all Cruiser/Tactical, but the Sovereign and Dreadnaught have a Lt. Cmdr Engineering slot, while the Excelsior has Lt. Cmdr Tactical. The Nebula has a Universal slot. How do you select which of these layouts to use with a levelled up ship?

The most common suggestion is for a player, instead of having this happen automatically, to be given the ability to upgrade his ship. So he has to do this manually. The player may or may not be allowed to make the choice as to where he wishes to put the additional slots and so forth. The problem is, that this cannot be allowed to make a lower tier ship more powerful than a ship that is native to that tier. Putting a weapon in a forward slot of a T2 Escort, for instance, would give it 4/1 weapon slots, making it much more powerful than the T3 Escort, and even comparable to the T4. (It has one less rear weapon slot, not really a big disadvantage to an Escort)

In the latest Ask Cryptic, there was talk about possibly tying such an upgrade to crafting. However, that wouldn't be until after Season 5 at the earliest, and Dan Stahl did not sound too enthusiastic about the idea. I think we can conclude that the devs are against an upgrade system that would allow a T1 ship to be upgraded all the way up to T5.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
08-12-2011, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blayyde
In the latest Ask Cryptic, there was talk about possibly tying such an upgrade to crafting. However, that wouldn't be until after Season 5 at the earliest, and Dan Stahl did not sound too enthusiastic about the idea. I think we can conclude that the devs are against an upgrade system that would allow a T1 ship to be upgraded all the way up to T5.

This is where we the players come in. Continue to push for ideas that improve gameplay. Because the current system has no logic behind it. None.

So we keep debating the issue. And giving feedback. And nudge the developers along. Remember, we actually play the game a lot more than they do. A lot more. We're the ones out there in their space, flying those ships and beaming down to those tiny little planets with their ionic columns that need scanning.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
08-12-2011, 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Of the dozen or so ways people have come up with to "fix" the ship tier system, I'm pretty much supportive of most of them. This one included.
Unfortunately, whether we are supportive or not isn't the issue, it is whether the devs are supportive.

Quote:
Like hey, I'm super duper glad that people who love the Excelsior get to fly it at T5. Gratz to you all. But what's up with all the hate for people who want to fly a Nova or an Olympic or an NX at the same tier? They just want to have the same kind of fun others have. It's kind of the core and central reason people bought the game in the first place, right?
And the Nova and Olympic are all much newer ships than the Excelsior. The Nova is at least 90 years younger than the Excelsior, and we can't really be sure about the Olympic, but it could have been placed in service as early as the Nova, or as late as the Cheyenne, which we can't be sure of either, but appears to preceed the Ambassador class.

The NX is a design that is older than the Excelsior, but is stated in game as being a replica constructed using 2409 methods, specifically as an Escort. In other words, it is a tiny version of the Akira.

The age argument simply doesn't hold water. I don't see CBS protesting that the Rhode Island not be a Tier 5 ship on the basis of its age. (It is a 2400s design)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
08-12-2011, 01:53 PM
This proposal has nothing to do with "design age" or any of that Canonical stuff. This is simply about letting players use what they want to use.

I really don't think it would be that hard to make 5 different versions of each ship. Crafting and letting players custom build ships with different weapons or consoles or BOff layouts does indeed sound very complicated and I don't think it's necessary.

Each ship would have a set evolution level by level from 1 to 5. Just as players learn different level based abilities the ships can do the same. Using different weapon, console and BOff slots can be a way to differentiate the ships and tailor them for specific tasks within their type. Also, even if different ship types end up with the same slots they can have differing hull/shields/speed/turn ratings to separate them from others in their class. Akira is larger than Defiant, therefore is slower and less maneuverable but has better shields and hull. I see Rapier and Defiant as about equal so they could have differing weapons slots or BOff assignments to differentiate them.

I could write up a simple progression for each ship at each level and they would all be slightly different. I think you get the idea.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
08-12-2011, 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvsaris View Post
This proposal has nothing to do with "design age" or any of that Canonical stuff. This is simply about letting players use what they want to use.
And the devs have said they don't want to do that. Whether because of CBS, because they personally have an issue with "design age", or simply because the work involved is greater, they have repeatedly given the answer to this question as "no".

Read this month's Ask Cryptic. Wishstone was also quite clear in a reply to another thread on the subject. The devs are simply not considering this, at least not until after Season 5, and then still no promises.

Quote:
I really don't think it would be that hard to make 5 different versions of each ship. Crafting and letting players custom build ships with different weapons or consoles or BOff layouts does indeed sound very complicated and I don't think it's necessary.

Each ship would have a set evolution level by level from 1 to 5. [...]

I could write up a simple progression for each ship at each level and they would all be slightly different. I think you get the idea.
Well, now I think you misunderstand the difficulty of what you are suggesting. Consider that there are at least 24 separate Federation ships in this game. (I'm eliminating refits since they are already upgrades of a previous tier) 5 times that number of ships is 120. You have instantly gone from 24 ships, which took as long to design and implement as this game has been around, and there are STILL complaints about minor graphic discrepancies and concerns about balance, to 120. So you expect those additional 96 ships to come out how soon, exactly? A week? A month? Two months? Half a year? How long should the devs work on individually designing each of these ships in preference to everything else?

Now the devs have got to BALANCE all 120 ships. There are 14 ships at max level. Those 14 ships all have to be balanced against each other, or whatever is the strongest of those 14 will be the one EVERYONE plays. There are already complaints that the ship of choice is currently the Excelsior. So, you now suddenly have 106 new ships, none of which have been tested live in the hands of players, none of which have had the time to be tested for exploits which can be used to make them overpowered in PVP.

Now, what you could probably do is come up with a progression such that each ship of a lower tier DOES NOT end up more powerful than the ones of that level. For instance, you might have each ship gain a weapon slot every two Tiers instead of every Tier. This would ensure that all autoupgraded ships would be weaker than the 14 ships at Tier 5, and would not have to be balanced against them. Unless some unexpected bug made one of them too powerful, but that bug could be fixed. Since the PvPers would not bother with the upgraded ships which are not as strong as new ships, then the devs only need to balance the 14 that are in that Tier.

However, you're still developing each of the 106 remaining ships separately. That will take work. While a consistent upgrade system would be more complicated to IMPLEMENT, just like crafting took time and effort to implement, it would then effect all ships once it was in place. Just as the crafting system lets you craft any of many various items in the game, without there having to be a totally different way to craft and earn every individual item in the game.

I will note that when you get down to it, upgrading each and every ship to higher Tiers is what the devs are doing. Just, very slowly. They have upgraded the Galaxy, Defiant, Intrepid, Excelsior and Nebula to Tier 5. They've even upgrade the Prometheus to Tier 5, even though it already is Tier 5. Logically, if they were to continue they would upgrade all of the remaining ships at Tier 3 to Tier 5. Also, there may be ships they will introduce in the future, and they may also offer refits of those to Tier 5.

Once all the Tier 3 ships are refitted, then the Tier 2 ships would be all that is left, and the Tier 1 ships. And the Tier 3 ships could be refitted to Tier 4, and the Tier 2 ships then refitted to Tier 3, and then to Tier 4. The devs COULD do this, if they continued on this path of upgrading ships by offering refits as new ships.

On the other hand, the devs may have decided they don't intend to ever refit a ship to Tier 5 ever again. They have said they don't intend to refit the Tier 1 and 2 ships to Tier 5, and the Rhode Island is not being refit to Tier 5. So this may be the end for refits. We can't really tell until the devs actually release a refit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
08-12-2011, 02:49 PM
Yup, ive already stated it numberous times, scalable ships. So VA's wanting a tier 1 ship model can just take it with scaled Consoles, weaponslots, etc etc equivalent of a VA ship of that type. Its really not hard to do if you ask me. And it gives alot of people alot more choice rather then just the VA ships currently avaiable.

Ive seen some nice new BOP's being worked on by captainlogan. Its a damn shame that its only lower tier ships.

Why would it be so hard? We do not necessarily ask for every ship to be Refted to every other tier. Just make the system scalable.

So be it, i want the tier 2 escort to be avaialbe at full equivalent as the Defiant, But i dont necessarily need a cloak with it, or any other 'special' functionality. Give it 1 extra Engineering slot. Bam. Done.
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