Lt. Commander
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# 21
08-26-2011, 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
I remember that episode, but don't forget that Ch'pok was trying to goad Worf into attacking him as a move in the trial to get the Judge to side with him. Ch'pok was dishonoring himself in the first place by knowingly trying to get at Worf for his actions and there is no reason to think that he didn't know what he was doing....
Every time we see Worf deal with the klingons we see his crushing disappointment over them not meeting his ideals (since he was raised with a human perspective). Even Worf, however, knows that klingon honour isn't analogous to human honour. When asked about how klingons, who are such believers in honour, could embrace tactics like ambushes from cloak, he responded, "Nothing is more honourable than victory."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
You're correct that a true Klingon wouldn't feel pity for his enemies, but that doesn't mean that they'd kill everything or rob and steal. There is more than just bloodlust in the Klingon heart...
To the victor go the spoils. And of course, we've readily seen the Empire conquer planets or cow miners for resources. So we've seen them openly pirating and marauding for profit, even if that profit is more for the Empire and the esteem it gives than for personal gain.

I think you're projecting human notions on klingon honour and trying to apply ideals to it that no klingon outside of Worf (who was raised by humans) never would.
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# 22
08-26-2011, 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
Every time we see Worf deal with the klingons we see his crushing disappointment over them not meeting his ideals (since he was raised with a human perspective). Even Worf, however, knows that klingon honour isn't analogous to human honour. When asked about how klingons, who are such believers in honour, could embrace tactics like ambushes from cloak, he responded, "Nothing is more honourable than victory."
Not at all, in fact we see Worf have plenty of good experiences with Klingon society. The problems that we see 98% of the time are directly related to the corruption of the Empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
To the victor go the spoils. And of course, we've readily seen the Empire conquer planets or cow miners for resources. So we've seen them openly pirating and marauding for profit, even if that profit is more for the Empire and the esteem it gives than for personal gain.

I think you're projecting human notions on klingon honour and trying to apply ideals to it that no klingon outside of Worf (who was raised by humans) never would.
Klingons do not concern themselves with 'filthy ledgers' or otherwise attacking for personal wealth, to do so is dishonorable or do I need to remind you that an entire Klingon House was discommendated for trying to use financial means to bring down another House (DS9: "House of Quark")?

Many dishonorable things are done "In the name of the Empire" but it is not a conflict of Human and Klingon ideas of honor so much as it is the corruption or cowardice of those in charge.
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# 23
08-26-2011, 04:15 PM
The other thing to consider is that a lot of Klingon fans project onto the klinks their beliefs, and it's been going around for such a long time that the fanon is that Klingons are these brave samurai-esque warriors that adhere to a universal code of honour and blah blah blah- they totally don't.


While they might have been modeled off of the Samurai, the Klingons are nothing of the sort. Honour is really a misnomer in this situation- I think a better term would be... oh... Glory.




Seriously, go and substitute every use of the word 'honor' with 'glory' in Klingon dialogue.



the picture it paints is not a very nice one, which is part of the reason why the word 'honor' is used. Honour sounds so much more... noble.



EDIT: If 98% of klingons are 'corrupted' um... well there's a thing called majority rules. If 98% of klingons believe honor works that way, then by all accounts, that's how it works.


Glory... less so.
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# 24
08-26-2011, 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrus View Post
The other thing to consider is that a lot of Klingon fans project onto the klinks their beliefs, and it's been going around for such a long time that the fanon is that Klingons are these brave samurai-esque warriors that adhere to a universal code of honour and blah blah blah- they totally don't.


While they might have been modeled off of the Samurai, the Klingons are nothing of the sort. Honour is really a misnomer in this situation- I think a better term would be... oh... Glory.




Seriously, go and substitute every use of the word 'honor' with 'glory' in Klingon dialogue.



the picture it paints is not a very nice one, which is part of the reason why the word 'honor' is used. Honour sounds so much more... noble.



EDIT: If 98% of klingons are 'corrupted' um... well there's a thing called majority rules. If 98% of klingons believe honor works that way, then by all accounts, that's how it works.


Glory... less so.
I never thought of them as space samurai. I always thought of them more as space bikers. Honor is found in furthering your gangs goals and in beating down your biker gang foes.

Anything else is just gravy.

And it also explains that klingon love of leather.

Just sayin....

and yeah, Sivar, calm down. They have to call it something, don't they?
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# 25
08-26-2011, 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Not at all, in fact we see Worf have plenty of good experiences with Klingon society. The problems that we see 98% of the time are directly related to the corruption of the Empire.
Every time we see Worf interact with the Empire and it's citizens it's readily apparently that beyond his DNA he's not very klingon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Klingons do not concern themselves with 'filthy ledgers' or otherwise attacking for personal wealth, to do so is dishonorable or do I need to remind you that an entire Klingon House was discommendated for trying to use financial means to bring down another House (DS9: "House of Quark")?
Who's talking about cooking accounting balances? I'm talking about conquering planets for resources (read: marauding). Organia for instance. An encounter involving one of the greatest and most "honoured" klingons of the Empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrus View Post
The other thing to consider is that a lot of Klingon fans project onto the klinks their beliefs, and it's been going around for such a long time that the fanon is that Klingons are these brave samurai-esque warriors that adhere to a universal code of honour and blah blah blah...
They are definitely not samurai. The Klingon Empire has much more in common with old school Vikings. Savage warriors who plunder and ravage and fight for the glory of it and all the boasting rights it gives them.

Sto-Vo-Kor...? It's Valhalla.
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# 26
08-26-2011, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrus View Post
The other thing to consider is that a lot of Klingon fans project onto the klinks their beliefs, and it's been going around for such a long time that the fanon is that Klingons are these brave samurai-esque warriors that adhere to a universal code of honour and blah blah blah- they totally don't.


While they might have been modeled off of the Samurai, the Klingons are nothing of the sort. Honour is really a misnomer in this situation- I think a better term would be... oh... Glory.




Seriously, go and substitute every use of the word 'honor' with 'glory' in Klingon dialogue.



the picture it paints is not a very nice one, which is part of the reason why the word 'honor' is used. Honour sounds so much more... noble.



EDIT: If 98% of klingons are 'corrupted' um... well there's a thing called majority rules. If 98% of klingons believe honor works that way, then by all accounts, that's how it works.


Glory... less so.
Every culture defines honor differently. even the Samurai did numerous things that we today would not view as honorable.

I tend to think of the Klingons more akin to the Vikings. Their belief system is certainly closer to the Vikings, while I don't see Klingons as looking down on what we might call "marauding", but I do think they like the Vikings (who just so happen to be named after the act they are famous for), the would have used a different choice of words. To "viking" if you will meant to go on an expedition, said expedition might have included marauding, trading, slaving or even exploration.

I'd rather see a more "neutral" term like this applied to the Klingon form of gameplay because to label it something like Marauding actually limits the possibilities and we've seen Klingons maraud, we've seen them trade (even if not in a capitalistic manner), we've seen them explore, we even have plenty of soft-canon sources to suggest that they have a form of slavery with conquered peoples.
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# 27
08-26-2011, 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrus View Post
The other thing to consider is that a lot of Klingon fans project onto the klinks their beliefs, and it's been going around for such a long time that the fanon is that Klingons are these brave samurai-esque warriors that adhere to a universal code of honour and blah blah blah- they totally don't.


While they might have been modeled off of the Samurai, the Klingons are nothing of the sort. Honour is really a misnomer in this situation- I think a better term would be... oh... Glory.




Seriously, go and substitute every use of the word 'honor' with 'glory' in Klingon dialogue.



the picture it paints is not a very nice one, which is part of the reason why the word 'honor' is used. Honour sounds so much more... noble.
It has nothing to do with a samurai-style, in fact they is very little to compare of the Klingons to the Samurai.

I'm not denying that there isn't a problem in the Empire, in fact we see it as early as Enterprise when Archer's advocate Kolos tells him that Honor is failing in the Empire and that things used to be very different, and that now the Empire was filled with young warriors concerned only with glory rather than honor.

It's also part of the reason that Kahless cloned, and the plan might have succeeded in restoring the Empire after the further and serious damage done by Duras and his family had it not been for Gowron exposing the action.

The Empire was founded on honor and that honor has faded dramatically into very little (thanks to the actions of families like the House of Duras) but there are still Klingons to whom that matters; don't make the mistake of thinking that they're all a bunch of glory-driven killers driven by their bloodlust....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrus View Post
EDIT: If 98% of klingons are 'corrupted' um... well there's a thing called majority rules. If 98% of klingons believe honor works that way, then by all accounts, that's how it works.
Where are you getting that 98% of Klingons are corrupt individuals?
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# 28
08-26-2011, 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boglejam View Post
and yeah, Sivar, calm down. They have to call it something, don't they?
Fair to say, but I can't shake the notion that there will be some mission to go and raid a passenger liner for any valuables that they're carrying that's worth 'x' emblems or w/e currency/xp equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
Every time we see Worf interact with the Empire and it's citizens it's readily apparently that beyond his DNA he's not very klingon.
We see Worf's human up-bringing putting him in conflict from time to time, but again most of the problems that he has was Klingon society are directly related to corruption in the Empire. If he wasn't a very good Klingon then Martok (who is entirely an honorable Klingon) wouldn't have thought him worthy of being in his House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
Who's talking about cooking accounting balances? I'm talking about conquering planets for resources (read: marauding). Organia for instance. An encounter involving one of the greatest and most "honoured" klingons of the Empire.
What happened with D'Ghor wasn't due to false accounting, it was because he was using loans, land and property acquisitions to weaken the standing of another House, rather than making a declaration and meeting them in open battle; when this was uncovered and D'Ghor's true quality revealed he was discommendated.
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# 29
08-26-2011, 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
We see Worf's human up-bringing putting him in conflict from time to time, but again most of the problems that he has was Klingon society are directly related to corruption in the Empire. If he wasn't a very good Klingon then Martok (who is entirely an honorable Klingon) wouldn't have thought him worthy of being in his House.
On this subject, one of my favorite quotes in regards to the relationship between Martok and Worf is this one.

Quote:
"Sirella is a woman of strong convictions. She believes that by bringing aliens into our families we risk losing our identity as Klingons."
"That is a prejudiced, xenophobic view."
"We are Klingons, Worf. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them."
Worf saw too many things through the Federation's lens, Martok could look past that because Worf was a fantastic warrior, and wasn't dishonorable in a weak way. He would also put the Empire before almost anythng else in his life, but Worf was not a "good" Klingon, hence why even in the soft-canon books he never fully integrates into Klingon society.

Klingons are not above "marauding" per se, though they would never view it in the way we view "marauding", nothing about marauding is dishonorable to a Klingon, as long as it is against legitimate enemy targets who they can kill in honorable battle.

Don't forget that this is the culture of the Battle of Tong Vey where Emperor Sompek ordered a city burned to the ground with all inhabitants in it. These are a people much more like the Vikings than like we are today. There is a story of a battle I think it is about Harold Hardrada, where he ordered birds to be tarred and lit afire and released them into a town that he could not take, when the birds tried to return to their nests, they caught the town a blaze and Harold sacked it. This is honorable warfare to a Viking, and very likely would also be to a Klingon.
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# 30
08-26-2011, 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrus
EDIT: If 98% of klingons are 'corrupted' um... well there's a thing called majority rules. If 98% of klingons believe honor works that way, then by all accounts, that's how it works.
Where are you getting that 98% of Klingons are corrupt individuals?
97% of all statistics found on the internet are completely made up.... <wink>

Jolan'tru
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