Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
08-27-2011, 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by dan6526 View Post
I want to go on the record as saying, in a more clear manner:

"I do not necessarily think the Sovereign is superior to the Galaxy."
i just have to thank you for your intelligent and well thought out posts, the sovereign fan boys were making themselves look bad.

the actual outcomes of particular battles really aren't that important when gathering data and examples of capabilities. the outcome is the product of writing, not the cumulative ability's each ship should have.

what has been observed from the galaxy is that its warp core is wider, taller, and more whole (its not divided into 5-7 small columns like the sovereign's is). the galaxy is a much larger ship, its 2.5 times the volume of a sovereign. in this picture you can really see it. my conclusion is that a much larger ship with a larger warp core is going to be producing more power.

as far as phaser yield goes, i believe the length of the array is the biggest decider of output, and an array is as long as the ship can fully power, it would be pointless for it to be longer. i don't think the galaxy's array length is long just so it has a large firing arc, a scattering of small arrays could do the same thing then. from what we have seen from phaser arrays it seems that whatever is in the arrays line of sight it can hit. the only time an array couldn't hit something is if part of the ship itself was in the way. there's also the trek science behind their workings that fans have pieced together and what has been written in the technical manual that also supports the long array argument, but i'll spare everyone that for now.

if we are comparing a 2380 galaxy and a 2380 sovereign, when the sovereign is at its canon best, we know that the emitter type the sovereign has are type XII, rated at 7.2 MW per emitter. the galaxy launched in ~2360 with type X emitters, rated at 5.1MW per emitter. the maximum powered shot can basicly be figured out by multiplying the emitter output by the number of emitters in an array. by 2380 the galaxy class and most other classes of ship probably were upgraded to the latest type, but even if they weren't the galaxy's main arrays are so much longer then the sovereign's that the galaxy is still going to be firing much more powerful shots.

someone measured how long the arrays were on both ships, and they came up with these numbers-

Big Dorsal Array: 825.46 meters
Big Ventral Array: 635 meters

Big Dorsal Array: 339.505 meters
Big Ventral Array(2): 259.425 meters

if the soverign numbers look small to you, take another look at that screenshot, they are really that much smaller. lets just say each emitter segment is 1 meter long, now for some math

825.46x5.1= ~4210 MW for the galaxy's largest array

339.505x7.2=~2444 MW for the sovereign's largest array

thats a big difference, not counting all the other factors their could be, like how long the shot duration is, how long it takes the charge animation to move along the array, what effect that those factors actually have, etc...

according to technical manuals, the 2 very large and complex torpedo launchers on a galaxy can fire10-26 torpedoes in rapid succession, practically all at once, before having to reload and rearm. i think the maximum observed on the show is a burst of 7 torpedoes in quick succession, and 2 instances were 10 torpedoes were fired all at once, so that's at least what the launchers are capable of. those launchers are completely without peer among federation ships, mainly because no other ships are large enough to house them.

the sovereign is again a much smaller ship and there is not enough room for launchers this large or complex any were were their are launchers. we have seen the quantum launcher fire a max of 4 in first contact, but in nemisis it never fires more then 3 in a burst. the refit before nemisis that upgraded the weapons might have lowered the bursting from 4 to 3, but it reloads much faster then previously observed at 1.5-2 seconds. same for all its other launchers during the battle. the duel photon launchers under the deflector have been seen firing a max of 2 each, with that same quick 1.5-2 second reload. the aft torpedo launcher above the shuttle bay appears to be the best aft launcher it has, it was seen firing bursts of 3 every 1.5-2 seconds at the beginning of the battle. the other small launchers in front of the bridge and above and below the aft shuttle bay all appear to be small single shot launchers, presumably with that same 1.5-2 seconds reload though.

both ships can drain their torpedo complement extremely fast, but those 2 galaxy launchers still keep it in first place with bursting torpedo delivery, it presumably could empty 52 torpedoes at a target with those 2 launchers after a bit of maneuvering according to the technical manual.

all the other factors like impulse speed, max warp, shield power and strength, and everything else are just to hard to pin down, there just isn't a frame of reference for them to be judged or compared. infant, shield strength is the writing team's #1 favorite suspense building reference, and is impossible to actually gauge.

it all comes down to how much bigger the galaxy is and the vast difference in scale of all its systems and weapons compared to the sovereign. like i said, the sovereign really is a whole order of magnitude smaller. heres the size difference picture again- if you crumpled the sovereign like a piece of paper and made it into an oval it would only be about the size of the galaxy's saucer. that 2.5 times larger volume figure comes from the VFX program were both ship's filming models were made. the program was used to measure the exact volume difference between the 2 ships and the galaxy turned out to be approximately 2.5 times the volume. its just so much bigger. all this is why i think the galaxy is more powerful, was certainly not 'replaced' by the sovereign, and i think theirs enough evidence to prove that to anyone with an open mind.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
08-27-2011, 01:59 AM
Right I will bite again

First off on the record while I do certainly prefer the Soveriegn over the Galaxy it is not my hero ships so to speak, that one you find in my signature and becuase it is not a cannon design it is hard to discus, but safe to say combat wise it would make both the of the ships we discus here like like childs play, but it cannot be of use in anything else

As for the Power output while the galaxy has a bigger and slightly longer core which makes it more efficient (the simple rule is to longer the core the more efficient it is so it will last longer with the same amount of fuel so to speak, this gives the cruisers their long range and limits ships like the defiant and nova classes) That said the Sovereign comes with a new design warp core which in the end has an slightly higher output. Add tot his the fact that she is indeed smaller this means more power for each systems compared to the Galaxy which had to spend a lot of her power on things that combat wise are rankly not important and not to forget to power a massive shield array far larger than the Sovereign one, so in the end here the sovereign has more power for it's combat systems compared to the Galaxy, even if the sovereigns core would have had less output.

No let's go and do with any sane Galaxy captain would do (how few have we seen on screen sadly) Ditch the saucer section when things get rough, while you loose two arrays you end up with a lot more power for the arrays and not to forget the shields you have left. In this configuration these days I suspect the engineering section has additional shield generators which can be put on hot stand by to form a third layer of shields (the regenerative shielding on the sovy works quite simple, instead of 1 set of shield generators, you have 2 which switch when needed to allow the inactive set to recharge) Now here we would have a ship that will feature superior shielding compared to the sovy, but quite a bit less in the forms of fire power, mainly because the Galaxy class remains hindered by the lack of launchers and torpedoes carried onboard, this is a simple result of putting the focus elsewhere.

So to me the conclusion is simple in general the sovereign is the all around superior combat vessel, but if a galaxy wants to she can be right there up the alley, but in the end the Galaxy class undoing is not that she cannot fight, it is simply that she is to big carrying to many people which she shouldn't carry and there in we find the fundamental flaw in her design. Granted it would have been wonderful if we knew peace and all the combat we had would be with some unfriendly neighbours we just discoverer, but this universe isn't build for peace.

Now in the end we should all agree that neither of these ships really are great they each have their flaws and they remain beast designed to all the jobs in the field which in the end renders them worse at them all than other vessels in the fleet.

Want to scan an area of space, investigate a nebula, well guess what? Get a Nebula class vessel.
Want to investigate a planet, got pick up a Nova class.
Want to blow some stuff up, go get a few defiants and Akiras (and if we go noncannon, Achilles to rule this party)
Want to patrol the boarder, go get an intrepid, akira, excelsior.
Want to explore and be ready for it all, go get a Galaxy or sovereign.

And so we end on my really last note, these ships are called explorers and for the love of whatever you believe in, the fact is the Galaxy class does it better as it should with the name it has.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
08-27-2011, 03:41 AM
Originally Posted by Liandras
Y'know my dad asked me a question the other day while we were having a debate about some political issue going on in the world today, and his question really made me think long and hard about what I think I know and why I feel so strongly about it. It was a very powerful question and I think it's something everyone should ask themselves when they want to argue a point. I try to remind myself of that question every time I want to add to a discussion, though I don't always succeed. The question was:

"Why do you think anyone should give a sh** about your opinion?"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
08-27-2011, 04:30 AM
Originally Posted by dan6526 View Post
I want to go on the record as saying, in a more clear manner:

"I do not necessarily think the Sovereign is superior to the Galaxy."

My major point was that the comparison is flawed from the start. While some elements are comparable, not all are. As my dear colleague, dontdrunkimshoot, put it the Sovy is a "kick down in size," though I think it is a bit overstated size difference and the Galaxy a bit overstated, but that is all opinion. In the end, the Galaxy will eventually obtain equivalent level technology (would have in STO's timeframe) and in many ways would be able to outperform the Sovereign in key areas. The Sovereign's edge would dwindle with successive refits bringing the Galaxy perfectly on par--perhaps not in the ways people would expect. In my opinion the Odyssey-Class would then be launched and trounce, from a Star Trek perspective, either ship regardless of fanboyism displayed by either Galaxy or Sovy side.

I really do try to balance all the TM stuff and Show stuff because focusing on one just pulls you out of what IS there. Semi-canon/soft-canon, measuring stuff on the models, size of special effects, all this stuff used as evidence is all well and good, but if you go based solely on one thing, you end up with skewed results.

Consider that every ship class depicted in Star Trek as the main vessel for the show suffers the Hero-Ship-itus. It will be superior, even when it should not be, it will last longer when it should not, and must be the underdog in situations it should not. BIG case in point: the Galaxy-class vs. the Borg Cube in Best of Both Worlds, it did more than the Starfleet Division amassed there, grant it the fight was merely a distraction. And it did it separated, meaning the Impulse Engines and other fusion reactors were the only source of power for it's long arrays, making the shorter ones powered better with the Stardrive section no less.

What if you use Tech Manual info, for Ship-X vs. Scimitar? The TM seems to state that any ship with a relatively long enough phaser array should be okay against it because disruptors and torpedoes shouldn't do enough even in the number there. So the Galaxy should not be fearful or anything with comparable shields/power/phaser array length/output/number of emitters/active emitters (meaning both the Galaxy and Sovereign should not really be that bad off with Galaxy more comfortable). But what ship realistically should be able to stand toe-to-toe to the Scimitar? I hardly believe any ship (other than a hero-ship) would. I find it amusing that the Enterprise was to meet with a small fleet that was headed by the U.S.S. Galaxy herself (see astrometrics before they enter the nebula). What if they met up before the engagement? The Enterprise still would have outlasted the Galaxy for the sole reason that she is the hero-ship. The TM makes fights that SHOULD be one-sided flipped, therefore it can be incongruous with the show. And all this misses the very simple, understated point: it's a story to be watched, for fun.

I think the Constitution-Refit was the best ship in all of Starfleet, but that Connie is old, outdated, and gone. The same happens to ALL ships, even the Galaxy. Just go for the ride, we'll have a new Enterprise, it will be cool, a new ship, that apparently will be promptly dismembered courtesy of the KDF. So I'll captain my Sovy and support the Enterprise-F, I'm going to have some fun, and do my best to disappoint those Klingons.
You forgetting its not only the capiabity of the ship but the exprience the crew has which makes them a hero ship. I thought we were discussing the general aspest of each ship in terms of technology?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
08-27-2011, 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by RAJ_2011
You forgetting its not only the capability of the ship but the experience the crew has which makes them a hero ship. I thought we were discussing the general aspect of each ship in terms of technology?
We're talking generic Sovereign Ship X vs generic Galaxy Ship Y. No hero-ship, equivalent crew skill. B/c if you argue otherwise, then is it really skewed.

Technologically at this point, they would be very comparable technologically. The Enterprise D vs E would not be technologically even, the E should be better than the D because it is more advanced/newer design, but that is not a Sovy vs equivalent Galaxy. I saw the debate more on the side of 2400 counterparts.

The Warp Cores in both ships appear to be the same size deck-wise with some quoting a taller and thinner (but not by much) core for the Sovereign. (check the MSDs for both ships and count them). The point I made with the Sovy is that mini-chambers do not mean "self-contained" chambers and could function like power lines where so often, they get sped up. So I do not necessarily think a Galaxy and Sovy put out the same Warp Power, but the Galaxy will likely have more fusion generators elsewhere too. I am just not sure either ship puts out more power. Again TMs, movies, etc. give no support, explanation why one is better than the other, I really doubt Starfleet would step backwards. After TNG hit the movies, the story said the Sovy was better, but they were also less interested in saying why. That means it becomes extremely difficult to know where and by how much was it better than older ships and how long it would take others to get those improvements too.

Same for other tech on the Sovy, the armor plating of the Sovy would not appear on other ships that are OLDER than it, but to argue it won't appear on ships built post 2373 is a bit of a stretch unless Starfleet stepped backwards--and I don't think they're in the habit of it. Same with Type XIIs. Not described phaser types generally get lumped in with older phaser verification by TM. That may be a false assumption b/c we don't know if there is additional modification beneath the strip. Inference is that with every Type of phaser, power/quality goes up. That said, even refit Galaxies, Intrepids, Novas, Akiras, Nebulas, Constitution-Refits, uh oops not Connies, uh... Steamrunners, Sabers, Norways, and whatever else will get the better one. It remains to be told if that ruins some of the math used by TMs and can make a Sovy absolutely better, worse, or even with another ship of proper power output--b/c I think the power output is similar b/c the Warp Cores are similar.

I know not everyone thinks the Sovereign is battle oriented, I think it is reminiscent of the Great White Fleet and chosen as the flagship in that period because it was the more advanced ship, it was a display of power, and would be impressive to other powers. But it has reduced size, so I think it would have less facilities than the Galaxy. Grant that there is no civie anything on the Sovy so some space is made up for, but estimates for crew go between 600-850 for the Sovereign. You don't need as many enlisted to properly man a Sovereign than Galaxy because maintenance work would be lighter. That frees some room, so while the ship can do some generalized tasks like any Starfleet ship, it was always my opinion that leads would be followed up on by the Science Team or Starfleet Corps of Engineers or whatever, including for the Enterprise-D. This leads me to believe the Sovereign is designed a specific mission profile that it specializes in and can do better than other ships, even the Galaxy. But there is no way a ship built for specialized workhorse tasks can do the job of a larger, more generalized Galaxy. They are two separate ships. It'd be like comparing the F-22 and F-35, both are built in the same generation of aircraft, both have stealth, but the F-22 is an Air Superiority Fighter and the F-35 is a Multi-Purpose Fighter. Throw in the F-117 or B-2 who do other missions but are 3rd and 4th generation. The F-22 will be better at Air-Superiority than the others, but is not geared to Air-to-Ground, bombing, reconnaissance, etc. The F-35 is better at that. But you need both in an Air Force. Starfleet would function the same way.

Who is to say Type XIIIs and bigger Warp Cores come out with the Odyssey and change the game? Eh, it's morning sorry. It has been a long time since a development in phaser tech came. I love the Sovereign, not big at all on the Galaxy, but I don't think one is vastly superior to the other, else one is useless and needs to go--and there both here and in the same tier too now. In a way it is the most fair thing now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
08-27-2011, 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
Y'know my dad asked me a question the other day while we were having a debate about some political issue going on in the world today, and his question really made me think long and hard about what I think I know and why I feel so strongly about it. It was a very powerful question and I think it's something everyone should ask themselves when they want to argue a point. I try to remind myself of that question every time I want to add to a discussion, though I don't always succeed. The question was:

"Why do you think anyone should give a sh** about your opinion?"
Because things are being discussed and I believe my opinion is valid in this discussion.

Also because this is a subject I like to discus as I said previously.

So as I also said previously like it or not I am not going to shut up I voice my opinion wanted or not, reading it is entirely up to you.

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