Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
08-30-2011, 01:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
I don't think it is. A healing oriented cruiser now has middle of the pack damage chaining two copies of FAW, even running full weapons power.

Sure, you can still get some pretty big output in a properly set up tactical cruiser, but that's what the point of flying a tactical cruiser should be in the first place: increased damage over time at the expense of burst.

There might be a couple of non-balance related issues left, but the actual balance seems good now. In fact, I'm starting to see more and more people returning to spam as a means to assert control.
And this is a reasonable and rational bit of feedback, and I agree with your observations, especially about the gradual return of spam, and I suspect that the two are related. In part, because the Community has been so leery of using even this newest version of FAW, mainly due to the stigma that was placed on the snix-version of the power, but also because many players are still not quite sure that it was changed enough or the right way.

The reduction in up-time greatly reduces the effectiveness of FAW as a spam-suppressor, which may be why it seems like such a 'cheap fix'... I also think that spam-heavy setups are making a comeback because there is hesitation to employ the most effective counter.

Maybe I just have gotten too jaded with the powers that be, and can't see the forest for the trees, so, I will be the first to say I am wrong, if the general consensus is that the power is 'okay' now.

-BRJ
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 72
08-30-2011, 02:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
I don't think it is. A healing oriented cruiser now has middle of the pack damage chaining two copies of FAW, even running full weapons power.

Sure, you can still get some pretty big output in a properly set up tactical cruiser, but that's what the point of flying a tactical cruiser should be in the first place: increased damage over time at the expense of burst.

There might be a couple of non-balance related issues left, but the actual balance seems good now. In fact, I'm starting to see more and more people returning to spam as a means to assert control.
I think what the QEW people are saying is that, no, a single DPS cruiser spamming FAW isnt a huge concern, sure.. They get a comparatively huge damageboost, but a good deal of that damage is "wasted" in that each beams bonus attack, hits completely random targets.. 8 FAW beams bonus attacks spread between 5-30 targets (ships, pets, mines) and is watered down enough that it is irrelevant.

The problem arise when a 5 man team flying specialized FAW ships.


I made a comparison in a old FAW thread, and it went something like this:

5v5 team, one with FAW and one "normal" - Each focusing on one target.

FAW team will hit their focustarget with 5x 6-8 beams plus debuffs. - They will also spread the bonusattacks from the 5x 6-8 beams between the 5 enemy targets..

Each enemy ship *not targetted* will on average take full damage from one enemy ship (and thus lose shields/hull and use selfheals) - Mines and photonics are cleared instantly, only fleetsupport ships and Carrier frigates will suck up significant enemy fire.

Normal team will hit their focustarget with the weapons of 5 ships, the remaining FAW ships will take little to no damage.

FAW team can focusheal, while the normal team have to keep an eye on all teammembers.

Now, this is the interesting part.

If a FAW ship die, the "normal" teams damage will remain the same; 5 ships focusing on one enemy ship - With the heals of the 4 remaining FAW ships going to this target.

If a normal ship die, the average damage off the FAW teams non-focus target will increase by ~20%
If a second ship die, the average damage off the FAW teams non-focus target will increase by ~40%
3rd ship and you have ~60% more.

The FAW team doesnt drop in DPS when they select a friendly target for heals.


1 FAW ship isnt a huge problem, 5 FAW ships are. Atleast in theory.. The latest change might have enough of an effect, but 10 seconds of 240% damage is still more than any other DPS buff.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 73
08-30-2011, 05:23 AM
I'm in the process of finding the skill points to have Beams ranked out on my tac cruiser, without losing my cannon ranks, I'm going to need some volunteers to roll FAW with me though. (It will have to be Klinkside) Five seconds of uptime isn't going to change the output while it's up and the accuracy fix isn't going to change much either.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 74
08-30-2011, 05:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
I'm in the process of finding the skill points to have Beams ranked out on my tac cruiser, without losing my cannon ranks, I'm going to need some volunteers to roll FAW with me though. (It will have to be Klinkside) Five seconds of uptime isn't going to change the output while it's up and the accuracy fix isn't going to change much either.
I think 5 seconds can make quite a difference. Otherwise we could argue that Cannon Rapid Fire would still be useful with a 5 second duration!

The uptime is very important for the DPS boosting powers. Win at Will was pressure turned into spike damage, basically. It was so much damage over time that your heals over time couldn't deal with it. The only hope was to find a way to kill your enemy even quicker. (Which probably required unevenly skilled teams in the first place, an excellent team managing heals and spikes well, and a mediocre team just good at rotating BFAW but unable to deal with spikes.)

But take out 5 seconds of that presure, and you might suddenly have a managable level, somethnig once again only enough to set up a spike attack.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 75
08-30-2011, 06:42 AM
Well.

With the new Torp Spread, and seeing how FAW is apparently "ok", I'm going to be loading up my RSV with FAW 1 + Spread 2 + GW 3 and see how much hate I can generate.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 76
08-30-2011, 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I think 5 seconds can make quite a difference. Otherwise we could argue that Cannon Rapid Fire would still be useful with a 5 second duration!

The uptime is very important for the DPS boosting powers. Win at Will was pressure turned into spike damage, basically. It was so much damage over time that your heals over time couldn't deal with it. The only hope was to find a way to kill your enemy even quicker. (Which probably required unevenly skilled teams in the first place, an excellent team managing heals and spikes well, and a mediocre team just good at rotating BFAW but unable to deal with spikes.)

But take out 5 seconds of that presure, and you might suddenly have a managable level, somethnig once again only enough to set up a spike attack.
Which is why I need some klink volunteers I think duration is much more important on CRF and CSV than it would be on FAW as half of the limiting factors on CRF are dependent on the weapon itself. You have to be in optimal range of Cannons when using those two skills which is much shorter than the optimal ranges on beams. I think if you throw in the usual pvp shenanigans such as Scramblespam, (as in the faw team is also packing scrambles) that 5 sec duration change isn't going to affect it much.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 77
08-30-2011, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post

And frankly i will stop running faw, when I can actually see my opponents again. Right now all I can see is fighter, mines, more fighters, photonic fleet, MVAM parts and on and on and on.
That's pretty much where I am. I'd rather use BOv, and I keep a nearly duplicate tactical officer with BOv instead of FAW in case I run into a low-spam team.

But FAW is the anti-spam, so when the enemy is balled up in a cloud of NPCs, you pretty much need it. The burst damage of BOv would generally be more useful on my cruisers, but those ships lack other ways to clear spam, so FAW is it. If spam were reduced I'd drop FAW in a heartbeat.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 78
08-30-2011, 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedJedi
The reduction in up-time greatly reduces the effectiveness of FAW as a spam-suppressor, which may be why it seems like such a 'cheap fix'... I also think that spam-heavy setups are making a comeback because there is hesitation to employ the most effective counter.
The newest FAW is fine for clearing spam if you save it for that purpose; it's cool down is less than or equal to most spam-creation. We just can't fire it off on every cool down anymore.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 79
08-30-2011, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
Well.

With the new Torp Spread, and seeing how FAW is apparently "ok", I'm going to be loading up my RSV with FAW 1 + Spread 2 + GW 3 and see how much hate I can generate.
I am interested in your results.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 80
08-30-2011, 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedJedi
Let's look at this from another angle...

Was New FAW™ (FAW3.0) broken/too powerful/whatever-you-want-to-refer-to-it-as? Absolutely, from the supposed (I say 'supposed' because it still is unusually accurate, but that seems to be more related to Beams in general, than, necessarily, FAW itself) Accuracy bug, to the excessive volume of firepower, it was blatantly obvious that a fix/tweak/nerf (or, if you prefer, NERF :p ) was necessary.

The list of proposed fixes was as long as it was varied... The chosen "fix"... Reducing the up-time...

So, instead of actually fixing the 'mechanics' that made FAW broken, the "fix" was to just make it so it happens slightly less often... While, at the same time, actually reducing FAW's effectiveness for what it is supposed to be utilized to do, which is to clear spam and provide slight-to-moderate pressure damage to multiple targets.

Why is it:


Because the problems that made it OP in the first place were not addressed, simply by a slight reduction in up-time. Taking a broken mechanic and making it so that you can use it a little less frequently is barely a band-aid, let alone a "fix" that solves the underlying problem.

-BRJ


Oh, and if there are "a lot of [so-called] better players who stay in the shadows," then they should get off their high horses and rather than 'think' that they understand the game better than anyone, they should join in regular PvP, join in the Community discussions, and try to help the Devs to steer the game in that "better" direction by offering constructive feedback and criticism. Everyone can be an armchair general or Monday morning quarterback, but unless they are the ones actually playing the game, their opinions will only ever be just that.
Red, just your name would lead me to believe that you already know almost, at least, 90% of what I do with NERFs. (And yes, I use the capitols just to emphasize the point) Remember the NERF WARS, back in SWG before NGE? Remember the start of it while CURB was being talked about? Remember devs coming to the forums asking if it was even worth fixing? Remember CURB turning into CU and the resultant complete deleation of the mind bar? Remember, how in CU, that the NERF WARS got soooooo bad that SOE Austin even stopped talking to us? Why? (see next question) Then, remember NGE and the community people of SOE telling us "it was to fix all of our "listed" problems" by taking away all diversity, making EVERY power in the game open to players completly vanilla, and telling us it was for our own good???????? After all, we all griped about it enough. And after Nov 15th, 2005, LA went directly to Bioware, in Dec. 2005, didn't pass go and didn't collect 200.00, and started talks for TOR. You want CBS to do the same?

Then and now, remember what this all did for that game. Do you REALLY want to see all of that, again, over here?

I said 90% as I came back to the NGE, after quite a long break due to not finding anything to replace SWG as a whole. Most did not, so I've got the years since Nov 15th, 2005 also which culminated in yet another form of CU with C6CD and then yet again with GU-Whatever. Take a good look at my signature, you actualy want that for STO all in the name of PVP balance?

You already know the outcome of these things. I'm sure you've been there just as much as I have. You have came up with some great aids, guides, questions to Cryptic Development, and help for the PVP community. But, please, do not try to start that process all over again, here. STO, Cryptic, and players just do not need it.

Last time I checked the culmination thread, here, there were 41 different items on it, 41!!!!!! Even some1 who never played SWG has to know that would constitute "NERF Wars" all over again.

Sorry, but there are many very good players, who PVP even, who do not come to the forums, who do not complain, and who do not get involved in the "I pwned jooooo" situation that PVP can bring up and make so evident. You do not have to be in a complete PVP guild or fleet to be a "good" player. I've met several. Their opinions matter just as much as yours or mine. They have their 15 bucks a month invested also, and JUST that fact makes them have the same importance.
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