Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
09-08-2011, 08:49 AM
Rear torpedos are bugged anyway at the moment.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=230056
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
09-08-2011, 08:57 AM
I think the skill is messed up.

It doesnt seem to matter much which shield facing is down for a blip second, if someone uses a spread on you it almost seems like ur being hit my a trico mine. Since this new spread my hull spontaneously bumped from 100 to <25% in a matter of milliseconds on numberous occasions. I dont see the use in HYT ability anymore?

Furthermore alot of people which use the skill now suddenly seem to have way higher damage statistics, which can only be explained by pure hull damage against other players, not npc's. (same as what we have observed with FaW obviously)

I think the developers did not anticipate all the factors of this new spread, it both does high damage AND it seems to be just randomly hitting a low shield facing. (aka this doesnt require any great captain skill to use) They didnt anticipate for this I believe. Spread has more chance to hit someone; So anticipate on that and adjust the damage done.

Lets just face it, the spread is now much more dangerous then High yield. And oh people so much like to make use of these skills. Lmao.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
09-08-2011, 09:03 AM
If you almost can one shot cruisers with TS1/2 something must be wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
09-08-2011, 09:06 AM
Suggested new Calculation:
Torpedo spread +85% of equivalent High Yield rank? --->
Total random shield side damage =
Divide by 4 = 21.25% for equal HYT ability.

And to make people happy with their new toy, lets pump it up to 25% of HYT damage.
I think they forgot this calculation. lolol

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3w
If you almost can one shot cruisers with TS1/2 something must be wrong.
Mew.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
09-08-2011, 09:07 AM
11

Use GW3 and Torpedo Spread including 2 shield strippers and you can blow 3 ships at the same time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
09-08-2011, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3w
11

Use GW3 and Torpedo Spread including 2 shield strippers and you can blow 3 ships at the same time.
Hax.


xxxxx
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
09-08-2011, 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfader1988
It doesnt seem to matter much which shield facing is down for a blip second, if someone uses a spread on you it almost seems like ur being hit my a trico mine. Since this new spread my hull spontaneously bumped from 100 to <25% in a matter of milliseconds on numberous occasions. I dont see the use in HYT ability anymore?
I think a big issue is that HYT has it's damage spread over time. Even a small amount of shields on a facing can ruin a HYT attack when you consider that regeneration, redistribution, and healing can occur between hits.

Torp spread though is just one massive attack. It can and will do massive damage even when you have that small "safety zone" of shields on a facing. The sheer extent of the damage is enough to power through a shallow facing, and those other factors that negatively effect HYT aren't a concern anymore.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 88
09-09-2011, 02:52 AM
This was requested by the sponsors of the OPvP tournament, and some of the conclusions contained at the end are my own opinions on the matter, but I have tried to contain as many objective numerics as possible, to allow the reader to draw their own conclusions.

-BRJ


Torpedo: Spread VS Torpedo: High Yield

(All numbers are based on a Joined Trill Captain, fully skilled in Starship Projectiles, Starship Torpedo Weapons, Quantum Torpedoes, using a Quantum Torpedo Mk XI [Acc][CrtD][Dmg])

Quantum Torpedo Mk XI [Acc][CrtD][Dmg]:
Damage: 4929 base damage output (no Consoles)
Critical Damage: 10065 damage (using modified Severity, see below)

Base Critical Severity: 84.2% (50% base + 25% Starship Battle Strategy + 9.2% Borg Console)
Modified Critical Severity: 104.2% (+20% from [CrtD] modifier)

Attack Pattern Alpha modifiers (with Aegis Engine): +63% damage, +4.2% CrtH, +42% CrtD
APA Torp Damage: 5876
APA Critical Damage: 14466

================================================== =

Torpedo: High Yield:

THY1:
  • Torpedoes Fired: 2
  • Damage: 5489 per torpedo
  • Damage with APA: 6543 per torpedo
  • Critical Damage: 11209 per torpedo
  • Critical Damage with APA: 16108 per torpedo

THY2:
  • Torpedoes Fired: 3
  • Damage: 4248 per torpedo
  • Damage with APA: 5064 per torpedo
  • Critical Damage: 8674 per torpedo
  • Critical Damage with APA: 12467 per torpedo

THY3:
  • Torpedoes Fired: 4
  • Damage: 3633 per torpedo
  • Damage with APA: 4331 per torpedo
  • Critical Damage: 7418 per torpedo
  • Critical Damage with APA: 10663 per torpedo

================================================== =

Torpedo: Spread:

(NOTE: All versions of Torpedo: Spread fire multiple torpedoes, however, they are calculated as a single, damage-producing entity.)

TS1:
  • Targets Hit: Up to 3
  • Damage: 8975
  • Damage with APA: 10767
  • Critical Damage: 18327
  • Critical Damage with APA: 26508

TS2:
  • Targets Hit: Up to 6
  • Damage: 10420
  • Damage with APA: 12501
  • Critical Damage: 21278
  • Critical Damage with APA: 30777

TS3:
  • Targets Hit: Up to 9
  • Damage: 11881
  • Damage with APA: 14254
  • Critical Damage: 24261
  • Critical Damage with APA: 35093

================================================== =

Observations:
  • Rather than the previously mentioned 85% of THY value for TS, it actually is closer to 80%.
  • TS has its Critical Damage scale much higher than THY's, due to the independent strikes of THY's attacks, each version of THY would need 2-3 of its attacks to score Critical Hits, in order to be assured of equivalent damage to an equivalent-level TS.
  • Critical Hits are far more valuable to TS than they are to THY, yet THY almost needs to score Critical Hits to keep pace with TS's potential Critical damage output.
  • Due to its multiple-target nature, given the same delivery system (i.e. using the same launcher to fire equivalent-level versions of TS and THY), TS will far outscore THY in overall damage done, particularly in cases where Critical Hits are scored.

On the topic of Critical Hits, if TS hits 3/6/9 targets, based on the version fired, not only does it have far more opportunities to score Critical Hits (from 50-125% more 'chances', depending on level), but, because all of its damage is calculated in a single hit, rather than spread over multiple impacts (each of which may or may not score a Critical), each of those additional opportunities is even more valuable than an its counterpart THY version.

Theory on Critical Hits:

Without access to the actual formulas that the engine utilizes to calculate impacts, particularly as regarding transferred damage on critical hits (i.e. how critical hits transfer damage through shield facings), I have gathered a lot of testing data (old and new) and based on extensive anecdotal information, put together a theory on how Critical hits are transferred through shields.

Example:

Let's take a target critically hit by TS2 (buffed by APA), and round the damage to 30k (for ease of math). If they shoot at a target with Shields, we know that a few things happen: first, the damage is reduced to 25% (7500), then the reduced damage amount is further reduced by active shield damage reduction (we will take a value on the upper side of average SDR, and assume an SDR of 50%), thus, the final, applied damage is reduced to 3750. If a target has more than 3750 shields remaining on that facing, it takes 3750 damage to the shield facing, and takes 3000 points of bleedthrough damage (10% of the initial damage output of the attack, bleedthrough being calculated from the base damage of an attack, before any SDR or the torpedo reduction is calculated) which is then reduced by any resistances on the target.

If the target has less than 3750 on the shield facing, we will say 2000 (again, for ease of math), in this case, the shield is going to take damage in excess of its remaining capacity. Here is the theory: the 2000 remaining capacity is compared to the incoming damage (3750) and then is applied as a proportional modifier to the base damage of the attack (30k), to determine the amount of damage that is subsequently applied to the hull. In this example, 2000/3750 is .533, thus, the proportional modifier applied to the incoming attack, yielding a result of 15990, which would be the amount of damage that is applied to the target's hull (and modified by any damage resistance), after blowing away the target's facing shield. Since Critical Severity modifiers can quickly push damage output on TS into the 30k+ range, it becomes fairly easy to see how the proportional damage (and anecdotes like Cruisers with nearly full shields losing 50% of their hull in a single Critical Hit) could rapidly become devastating.

Comparing this to THY, on the other hand, there are several, significant differences that give TS a distinct advantage (even though it 'technically' has a lower, overall damage output) in the delivery of burst damage (the fact that it can be delivered to multiple targets simply adds to the value, especially in situations considering Critical Hits). THY delivers its damage over multiple impacts, which means that, in circumstances where a target has a large, remaining shield capacity, both are equally affected and rather limited; however, in circumstances where a target has moderately-to-heavily depleted shields, the fact that TS delivers all of its damage at once will dramatically increase the likelihood of significant transfer of damage to the hull.

THY suffers from the effects of a target's reactive abilities (Tactical Team or simple Shield Distribution) as its effects are spread over multiple, successive hits (a typical THY3 will have 2 of its 4 torpedoes hitting at least a sliver of shields on a target with TT or distributing its shields, due to the time between impacts, usually the 1st and 3rd or 2nd and 4th torpedoes will impact on shields (thereby severely diluting the impact of those torpedoes).

Critical Hits are an even bigger difference, as TS Criticals scale linearly (and impressively) higher, especially once damage-boosting abilities are added to the mix. THY, on the other hand, has potentially higher damage output, but that potential is severely limited by the necessity of scoring multiple Critical Hits over the total number of its impacts; conversely, each Critical scored by TS delivers the full, maximized value of that hit, in a single shot.

Conclusions:

Mechanically, TS is working exactly as advertised and as (functionally) intended... However, those mechanics give TS a significant (if not insurmountable) advantage over THY in both method and magnitude of the delivery of burst damage. The massive field of potential fire (3/6/9 targets) only further maximizes the potential impact of TS in the PvP environment. The biggest problem, however, is that the appropriate counter to the massive, potential damage output... Is spam... *sad panda*

Is TS overpowered? Technically, no; mechanically (considering its purpose for AoE usage), probably.

Solutions? Two that I can think of, off-hand:
  • Maintain the current mechanics, but limit the damage output to 2/3/4 targets. Makes it much less useful for AoE spam-clearing, but, with the existing mechanics, it really is not a spam-clearing tool, rather it is a powerful damage-dealing AoE. This solution would probably require damage-tuning to the base damage of the attack, perhaps from 80% of equivalent THY to 60% or so.
  • Alter the mechanics, but maintain the 3/6/9 targets. Have each target hit by 2/3/4 torpedoes, each at the 80-85% value of equivalent THY, but with the same, mechanical application as THY. This reduces Critical Hits to a level that is comparative to THY, while still allowing significant AoE coverage. From an underlying game engine standpoint, this is probably a far more complicated alteration; however, it is probably the most balanced one.

Should it be banned for the OPvP tournament? While TS does not suffer from exactly the same concerns as FAW, the appropriate counter to TS is (just like FAW) to drop as much spam as possible. As the rules of the tournament are specifically geared to limit the amount of NPC target spam that is present in the matches, perhaps limiting TS to version 1 (possibly 1 and 2) might be appropriate, which would also limit the instances of absurdly-high Critical Hits. (This would also have the added benefit of eliminating any of the have/have-not barriers, as TS3 has become an enormously-expensive and enormously-sought BOff, thus, it is likely that not all players will have access to it.)

-BRJ
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 89
09-09-2011, 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedJedi
If the target has less than 3750 on the shield facing, we will say 2000 (again, for ease of math), in this case, the shield is going to take damage in excess of its remaining capacity. Here is the theory: the 2000 remaining capacity is compared to the incoming damage (3750) and then is applied as a proportional modifier to the base damage of the attack (30k), to determine the amount of damage that is subsequently applied to the hull. In this example, 2000/3750 is .533, thus, the proportional modifier applied to the incoming attack, yielding a result of 15990, which would be the amount of damage that is applied to the target's hull, after blowing away the target's facing shield. Since Critical Severity modifiers can quickly push damage output on TS into the 30k+ range, it becomes fairly easy to see how the proportional damage (and anecdotes like Cruisers with nearly full shields losing 50% of their hull in a single Critical Hit) could rapidly become devastating.
As I understand it, you researched this with actual tests in game.

I know that the previous theorycraft at least was that the excess hull damage was simply applied to the hull directly. (So it would be 1750 damage in your example, not 15990). This would be an interesting find indeed. Do you think this only applies to criticals, or does it apply to all? If it applies to all, a sliver of shield might not be quite as strong as originally believed. (WHich might give at least another fellow poster, Cursix, some rest.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 90
09-09-2011, 04:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
As I understand it, you researched this with actual tests in game.

I know that the previous theorycraft at least was that the excess hull damage was simply applied to the hull directly. (So it would be 1750 damage in your example, not 15990). This would be an interesting find indeed. Do you think this only applies to criticals, or does it apply to all? If it applies to all, a sliver of shield might not be quite as strong as originally believed. (WHich might give at least another fellow poster, Cursix, some rest.)
Yes, this is from in-game testing... I actually compiled a bunch of old Beam: Overload tests and included those results with the Torpedo: Spread tests in some rough calculations, and that gave me a pretty comfortable batch size where it seems that there is definitely some additional calculation undertaken, when incoming damage exceeds available shields.

Since I cannot control the frequency of Critical Hits, it is difficult to develop conclusive, proven examples over a wide enough range of tests, but the indications strongly support the conclusion. This also would explain some of the insanely-powerful hits from some Beam: Overload alpha strikes.

I would have to conclude that it applies to all attacks, but I admit that I only was examining results for Critical Hits. Now that I have a calculation matrix set up, however, I should be able to go back and plug in a range of tests (inclusive of all attacks) and see if the conclusion holds up... Alternatively, I may set up a controlled test just to examine things. I think for normal attacks, it is difficult to tell from 'eyeball testing', because the damage reduction, even from a sliver of shields, is significant enough to severely limit any damage 'through' the shields, hopefully, a test will be revealing.

-BRJ
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:01 AM.