Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
09-18-2011, 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Body_Surfer
No matter if your correct or not you can't tell somebody your ignorant and out of touch, now listen to me. That approach never works.
Maybe not, but nothing else has ever gotten through to these guys. They either need to:

a.) Learn how to play the darn game

or
b.) Seek help from the PvP community

But they instead choose
c.) Randomly **** around and break things

We've tried diplomacy. We've tried being nice, writing long intelligent posts. Doesn't work. We keep getting stupid **** that unbalances the game. And lately the pace of destruction has rapidly accelerated. Tough love might not work, hell it probably won't and maybe nothing will -- but it's about the only tool left at this point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
09-18-2011, 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Maybe not, but nothing else has ever gotten through to these guys. They either need to:

a.) Learn how to play the darn game

or
b.) Seek help from the PvP community

But they instead choose
c.) Randomly **** around and break things

We've tried diplomacy. We've tried being nice, writing long intelligent posts. Doesn't work. We keep getting stupid **** that unbalances the game. And lately the pace of destruction has rapidly accelerated. Tough love might not work, hell it probably won't and maybe nothing will -- but it's about the only tool left at this point.
Hey Hurley,

I understand your frustration, but I gotta agree w/ the other poster... we should keep it cordial and diplomatic. I feeeeeel your frustration and pain, honestly I do -- I'm right there with you. In fact, I sincerely hope Heretic and Gecko take your advice and actually work w/ the OPvP community. But insulting people is rarely the best tactic at pushing an agenda, especially one as important as this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
09-18-2011, 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Body_Surfer
If I were them and heard you talk about me like you just talked about them I guarantee you would be the last person I would talk to ever about anything. No matter if your correct or not you can't tell somebody "your ignorant and out of touch, now listen to me." That approach never works.
This is truth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
09-18-2011, 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Maybe not, but nothing else has ever gotten through to these guys. They either need to:

a.) Learn how to play the darn game

or
b.) Seek help from the PvP community

But they instead choose
c.) Randomly **** around and break things

We've tried diplomacy. We've tried being nice, writing long intelligent posts. Doesn't work. We keep getting stupid **** that unbalances the game. And lately the pace of destruction has rapidly accelerated. Tough love might not work, hell it probably won't and maybe nothing will -- but it's about the only tool left at this point.
I understand the frustration too. Honestly I don't play much PvP because the balance issues. I did a lot in the begging but it just wasn't fun. Id love to be able to get back in it and Id love be able to stop dealing with all these changes on the PvE side of things to balance out the PvP. I just want to see one huge balance pass were everything is fixed at once. This will require a lot of input from the community. From Heretics post it sounds like this is a later on down the road kind of an overhaul. For now all I expect they can do is take care of exploitative balance issues.

In the time being were all gonna have to wait it out till more pressing matters are taken care of. Hurley I'd hate to see you burn your bridges between now and when they make their PvP focus because you do have some good ideas and a great base of knowledge and experience in PvP. It would be a shame when this process kicks off if your not a part of it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
09-18-2011, 03:51 PM
A thick skin is pretty much mandatory for dev posting on forums.

Nobody has a monopoly on "the truth" when it comes to balancing - developers included. All of us have pieces of information the others do not, and only very rarely is there ever any sort of true consensus - what one person thinks "obviously is the solution" is rarely as universal an opinion as they might believe.

Development has the task of pulling together the information from the disparate opinions and impressions of players to numerical analysis to technical constraints to impact on every part of the game, and fitting a plan into a very packed schedule.

There was a comment in another thread about maximum target restrictions being necessary for technical reasons, with one player saying it did not matter.

That, in fact, is exactly the point; these things do in fact matter to those who have to build and maintain this system, and must be taken into consideration by development. I do not have the luxury of ignoring what our engineering department says, nor the inheritance structure of the data, nor the schedule that Production lays out, nor the publicly available information that Marketing indicates, nor the art budgets, nor a dozen other considerations and limitations.

These are immensely complicated systems, and the reason we encourage discussion and feedback from the forums is because there is a concrete and definable benefit to drawing upon the experience and opinions of the community.

I greatly appreciate and will continue to take into account all responses that are productive, reasonable and civil. Inflammatory or uncivil responses will simply result in that poster being ignored, and thus no longer able to contribute effectively to the discussion, ultimately helping nothing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
09-18-2011, 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
A thick skin is pretty much mandatory for dev posting on forums.
And I feel horrible about basically shouting at you, but I'm just exasperated about all of the ways we have tried and failed to get through. We want to help. You guys need the help. What's the big problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
Nobody has a monopoly on "the truth" when it comes to balancing - developers included. All of us have pieces of information the others do not, and only very rarely is there ever any sort of true consensus - what one person thinks "obviously is the solution" is rarely as universal an opinion as they might believe.
That being said, all too often there is consensus (or something close enough to it) from the PvP population that ends up being ignored. We had consensus about the new FAW before it hit live, and we have consensus about torp spread now, same with scramble and antimatter spread. It looks like the entire "AOE only effecting 5 objects" is gaining a consensus against it as well.

And that being said, there are some people who simply know better than others. RPers and PvErs know basically nothing. The average PvPer knows quite a bit more, but not nearly as much as the top members of say, QEW or TSI know. If PvPers have consensus on something we're typically right. If the top PvPers have consensus on something then they are typically right, even if there is still debate among the larger PvP community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
Development has the task of pulling together the information from the disparate opinions and impressions of players to numerical analysis to technical constraints to impact on every part of the game, and fitting a plan into a very packed schedule.
Sorry, but I'll call BS on that one. The issue is that you don't put any effort into finding credible sources. Having design discussions on the tribble forums, TTS, or God forbid general discussion is going to pollute feedback to the point where it becomes worthless. Guys like Big Red, Era, and Kharn should be on your speed-dial but they aren't. Hell, I haven't even heard of a PvPer ever getting onto an internal or closed test shard, but for some reason this happens all of the time for STF players. In what universe is that the more important consideration for you guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
There was a comment in another thread about maximum target restrictions being necessary for technical reasons, with one player saying it did not matter.
That was me. And thanks for the straw man argument but that's not what I said. Here's what the deal is with the max 5 object AOE limit:
  • Balance should be a higher priority than performance. This doesen't mean that performance does not matter
  • You're encouraging massive amounts of spam as an easy and effective counter to AOE abilities
  • Spam sucks and isn't fun
  • A massive amount of spam is also going to create major performance issues, so you're stuck with the same problem anyway
  • Therefore any change in AOE abilities to only effect 5 targets should be met with an overhaul of spam. Specifically, greatly reducing it
  • Otherwise, you need to put in tech that allows you to distinguish players from other objects

People have been trying to point these things out to you, but you just aren't listening. You keep repeating yourself, and you aren't acknowledging any of the points we bring up. This is the problem -- a lack of communication and a "We don't need help!" attitude when you desperately do need it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
That, in fact, is exactly the point; these things do in fact matter to those who have to build and maintain this system, and must be taken into consideration by development. I do not have the luxury of ignoring what our engineering department says, nor the inheritance structure of the data, nor the schedule that Production lays out, nor the publicly available information that Marketing indicates, nor the art budgets, nor a dozen other considerations and limitations.
Then communicate those limitations to us so we can help you work around them! If you hopped onto OPvP, or better yet Vent/TS/Skype then we could understand better what you can and can not do. Again, we only want to help! What's the big issue here, pride?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
These are immensely complicated systems, and the reason we encourage discussion and feedback from the forums is because there is a concrete and definable benefit to drawing upon the experience and opinions of the community.
If these systems are immensely complicated, then why don't you treat them as such? Slow down. Don't do things for the sheer hell of it (like changing the torp cooldown) without sober second thought from yourself and the PvP community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
I greatly appreciate and will continue to take into account all responses that are productive, reasonable and civil. Inflammatory or uncivil responses will simply result in that poster being ignored, and thus no longer able to contribute effectively to the discussion, ultimately helping nobody.
If I'm being rude, it's simply due to sheer desperation at this point. I would like nothing more than a productive, mutually respective dialog. Give a little. Come onto OPvP. Vent up. Listen to us. We'll listen to you too. You'll get a much warmer response if you actually try to work with us.

Sure, it may sting your pride a little bit, but it can't be any worse than the constant **** storm of negativity that comes with every single change that you make when you don't listen!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
09-18-2011, 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Otherwise, you need to put in tech that allows you to distinguish players from other objects
I think there is an option in the controls menu that you can change so your tab targetting only targets players and not mines etc. That the sort of thing you want?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
09-18-2011, 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
And I feel horrible about basically shouting at you, but I'm just exasperated about all of the ways we have tried and failed to get through. We want to help. You guys need the help. What's the big problem?



That being said, all too often there is consensus (or something close enough to it) from the PvP population that ends up being ignored. We had consensus about the new FAW before it hit live, and we have consensus about torp spread now, same with scramble and antimatter spread. It looks like the entire "AOE only effecting 5 objects" is gaining a consensus against it as well.

And that being said, there are some people who simply know better than others. RPers and PvErs know basically nothing. The average PvPer knows quite a bit more, but not nearly as much as the top members of say, QEW or TSI know. If PvPers have consensus on something we're typically right. If the top PvPers have consensus on something then they are typically right, even if there is still debate among the larger PvP community.

Sorry, but I'll call BS on that one. The issue is that you don't put any effort into finding credible sources. Having design discussions on the tribble forums, TTS, or God forbid general discussion is going to pollute feedback to the point where it becomes worthless. Guys like Big Red, Era, and Kharn should be on your speed-dial but they aren't. Hell, I haven't even heard of a PvPer ever getting onto an internal or closed test shard, but for some reason this happens all of the time for STF players. In what universe is that the more important consideration for you guys?



That was me. And thanks for the straw man argument but that's not what I said. Here's what the deal is with the max 5 object AOE limit:
  • Balance should be a higher priority than performance. This doesen't mean that performance does not matter
  • You're encouraging massive amounts of spam as an easy and effective counter to AOE abilities
  • Spam sucks and isn't fun
  • A massive amount of spam is also going to create major performance issues, so you're stuck with the same problem anyway
  • Therefore any change in AOE abilities to only effect 5 targets should be met with an overhaul of spam. Specifically, greatly reducing it
  • Otherwise, you need to put in tech that allows you to distinguish players from other objects

People have been trying to point these things out to you, but you just aren't listening. You keep repeating yourself, and you aren't acknowledging any of the points we bring up. This is the problem -- a lack of communication and a "We don't need help!" attitude when you desperately do need it.



Then communicate those limitations to us so we can help you work around them! If you hopped onto OPvP, or better yet Vent/TS/Skype then we could understand better what you can and can not do. Again, we only want to help! What's the big issue here, pride?



If these systems are immensely complicated, then why don't you treat them as such? Slow down. Don't do things for the sheer hell of it (like changing the torp cooldown) without sober second thought from yourself and the PvP community.



If I'm being rude, it's simply due to sheer desperation at this point. I would like nothing more than a productive, mutually respective dialog. Give a little. Come onto OPvP. Vent up. Listen to us. We'll listen to you too. You'll get a much warmer response if you actually try to work with us.

Sure, it may sting your pride a little bit, but it can't be any worse than the constant **** storm of negativity that comes with every single change that you make when you don't listen!
The part in red I take exception to. That is your opinion and not fact. Simply because someone would tend to RP or PvE more than PvP doesn't mean squat in term of knowledge. I could just as easily say that PvP know nothing but I won't. Everyone has got their opinion and insights. One is no less valid than the other. If PvP people have a proble with a particular power being over powered or under powered... fine however, their opinion or knowledge is no better or worse thatn anyone else who has spent equal time playing the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
09-18-2011, 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore_Stipe
The part in red I take exception to. That is your opinion and not fact. Simply because someone would tend to RP or PvE more than PvP doesn't mean squat in term of knowledge. I could just as easily say that PvP know nothing but I won't. Everyone has got their opinion and insights. One is no less valid than the other. If PvP people have a proble with a particular power being over powered or under powered... fine however, their opinion or knowledge is no better or worse thatn anyone else who has spent equal time playing the game.
Hurly can come off as condescending... personal jibs aside, he is pretty much correct.

When it comes to the inner working of the games math, sorry there is an elite, I don't say that to put anyone down its simply the nature of competition.

I would not argue that because I play some hockey on the weekends in a pickup league that my thoughts on the game carry the same weight of say a Wayne Gretzky. I think that analogy needs no explaining.

Being competitive in the higher levels of STO PvP is no different. Beyond just having lots of practice you have to have an understanding of the mechanics.

PvE People don't copy to the test server so they can test 10 variations of the same build to get combat log results..... PvP people do.

PvE People don't optimize EVERY single aspect of their build looking for synergies that make X and Y > then X and Y if you know what I mean.

PvP people will whip out non game related mathematical formulas to adjust and improve their builds.

Its a level of dedication to the game that gives people unique insights. Truly I mean no offense to the PvE people... and I doubt HB does either. There simply is people in this game that are THAT much better then even the majority of PvP... its that ability to "see" inside the mechanics that the devs should be sifting out. We all know who the "#99s" are in this game... the devs should be weighing their thoughts more heavily, just as any sports board of directors is wise to consult people in the know when they change rules ect.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
09-18-2011, 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
  • Otherwise, you need to put in tech that allows you to distinguish players from other objects
Isn't there a Option already in game for that?
Game Menu -> Controls =
  • Never auto target objects (ON/OFF)
  • Never auto target pets (ON/OFF)

I'm all for more Balance...
So long as the Definition of "Balance" makes more sense than some other Cryptic Key Word definitions....
*Cough*Content*Cough*
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