Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
09-19-2011, 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
It seems to me that diplomacy isn't Hurley's strength, and he often falls into a certain... antagonistic behavior pattern. Maybe that's what makes makes him a good PvPer, but I wouldn't want him as community representative. :p
antagonistic behaviour pattern...nice euphemism.........
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
09-19-2011, 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by Heretic
A thick skin is pretty much mandatory for dev posting on forums.

Nobody has a monopoly on "the truth" when it comes to balancing - developers included. All of us have pieces of information the others do not, and only very rarely is there ever any sort of true consensus - what one person thinks "obviously is the solution" is rarely as universal an opinion as they might believe.

Development has the task of pulling together the information from the disparate opinions and impressions of players to numerical analysis to technical constraints to impact on every part of the game, and fitting a plan into a very packed schedule.

There was a comment in another thread about maximum target restrictions being necessary for technical reasons, with one player saying it did not matter.

That, in fact, is exactly the point; these things do in fact matter to those who have to build and maintain this system, and must be taken into consideration by development. I do not have the luxury of ignoring what our engineering department says, nor the inheritance structure of the data, nor the schedule that Production lays out, nor the publicly available information that Marketing indicates, nor the art budgets, nor a dozen other considerations and limitations.

These are immensely complicated systems, and the reason we encourage discussion and feedback from the forums is because there is a concrete and definable benefit to drawing upon the experience and opinions of the community.

I greatly appreciate and will continue to take into account all responses that are productive, reasonable and civil. Inflammatory or uncivil responses will simply result in that poster being ignored, and thus no longer able to contribute effectively to the discussion, ultimately helping nothing.
Man, I kinda like this Heretic guy....

I just want to say thank you for showing an interest Heretic. You seem genuinely interested in what we have to say, unlike another mod who shall remain nameless, let's call them "hoperock" who seemed to be only interested in silencing us.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
09-19-2011, 03:17 AM
If a calm and reflective person doesn't get an appropriate response, then, maybe becoming angry is the last attempt to make your voice heard...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
09-19-2011, 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
The average PvPer knows quite a bit more, but not nearly as much as the top members of say, QEW or TSI know.
best knowledge, but also most bias?

These top fleets will both advocate changes that makes the game better for their playstyle, even if this playstyle does not fit other PvP teams or PUGs. They will not want to nerf any abilities that favor strong teamplay, and their suggestion may sometimes hurt PUG-play. And (almost) all these "premade" players have no idea how the balance is for PUGs! (the most numerous group of PvPers, and the players that will form the premades of tomorrow if they are not scared away)

still, you basically got it right!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
09-19-2011, 05:46 AM
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
I agree with you PvP AND PvE need to be fun and engaging for the game to move forward. I think we simply disagree on how best to get there.

Honestly I would like to see the PvE mobs get LESS HP LESS shielding... and more intelligent design, meaning more skills... more chains of skills.. What if every mob you faced was a bit different. Why does X mob always have to have the same set of skills.

I agree that good PvE is very much needed. I think what we have now is lacking somewhat. As so far the way to make things more challenging has been to give things more HP and pretty much give them cheats.

What if we gave them 100 variations of 3 or 4 skill roles that made them a real challenge. Some would try to heal and tank... some would pop off 3 or 4 tac skills and try to burst. What if it wasn't BORING.

I know you don't see it that way 30 toons tells us that. Really though the AI needs work... and when the AI is up to par the skill balance... is something you would look at in a new light.
As a PvEer who took an very unexpected turn to a PvPer, I too wish PvE was more fun that it has become. I prefer PvP because it is infinitely more challenging and interesting. I had a lot of hope for the Red Alerts but disappointing decisions along the way have made that a bland, underwhelming experience as well. It's unfortunate because I'm not here for just one aspect of the game.

I think the Us v Them mentality serves as more of an unfortunate distraction from much more important issues. Generally speaking, I'm more impressed with the game basic comprehension of regular PvPers than I am with the average PvEers but that doesn't mean none of them know anything. It doesn't feel like balance is as important to PvEers though and that likely come down to the simplistic nature of the PvE game. Some are selfish. Some are self righteous. Most are just frustrated.

Your most basic powers need to be balanced across the game as a whole. Balance doesn't have to make the game anymore bland than it already is at times.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
09-19-2011, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by Shakkar
You didn't just shout at Heretic once. You've repeatedly called him, Geko, and the whole dev team incompetent or liars. You've been strident and extremely emotionally invested, even desperate, over a game. You've repeatedly shown disrespect for the dev team and every player except those you deem worthy. To you, every other player except for the pvp elite are the "unwashed masses" (your words) who should not be listened to. Only those who are truly worthy such as yourself and about 3 other people should dictate the way the game works; the dev team should not do these things. They should "swallow their pride" and admit they know less than you about the game even though they made it. Why anyone would listen to that and find it constructive is beyond me. And at the end of it all you basically threaten the devs with another stream of invective if you don't get your way.

Just wow. I have to advise you find something to help your attitude. Be it another game, one of the many available medications, or just going out for a daily walk or something. Get away from something that makes you so upset. Even if for a day or two.

Or you can keep going, until you finally say something to get you really banned from the conversation.
this. ALL this.

i have nothing against you hurleybird, or your opinion, or your intense love of PvP. but you're SERIOUSLY over the line with everything you say against the devs, whether you're desperate or not.

do you think getting yourself banned will help anything? no? then calm. down.

none of us want to see you go. so please, take a break from these forums or something
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
09-19-2011, 08:56 AM
lol calm down hurley. Put on ur Covariant and everthing will be peace of kake

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58 ok gang, reality check...
09-19-2011, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
Hurly can come off as condescending... personal jibs aside, he is pretty much correct.
When it comes to the inner working of the games math, sorry there is an elite, I don't say that to put anyone down its simply the nature of competition.
I would not argue that because I play some hockey on the weekends in a pickup league that my thoughts on the game carry the same weight of say a Wayne Gretzky. I think that analogy needs no explaining.
Being competitive in the higher levels of STO PvP is no different. Beyond just having lots of practice you have to have an understanding of the mechanics.
PvE People don't copy to the test server so they can test 10 variations of the same build to get combat log results..... PvP people do.
PvE People don't optimize EVERY single aspect of their build looking for synergies that make X and Y > then X and Y if you know what I mean.
PvP people will whip out non game related mathematical formulas to adjust and improve their builds.
Its a level of dedication to the game that gives people unique insights. Truly I mean no offense to the PvE people... and I doubt HB does either. There simply is people in this game that are THAT much better then even the majority of PvP... its that ability to "see" inside the mechanics that the devs should be sifting out. We all know who the "#99s" are in this game... the devs should be weighing their thoughts more heavily, just as any sports board of directors is wise to consult people in the know when they change rules ect.
Problem is you two, Yourself and Hurley just Did give offense simply because you used generalistic termonology to describe a huge amount of folks who you truly do not know. From what you stated, it crosses the line over to Elitism, even though you state its not your intent.

Try this team, Just dont toss out open all encompassing demographic origins of any kind. Storm stated it clearly he will take such as "hate posting" and outline the only punishment for it. So lets just not go there, kk?

Try, "we the players", not "We the PVP community", in truth you dont speak for us all, you can only speak for yourself, and that from a fellow pvp'r. So please, clarify directly that this is your opinion and not the view of a community who may not agree with either of you.

NOTE: as pointed out by me, a fellow player who does PVP/PVE, I do no agree at all with either of you, so please speak only for yourselves and not others who you do not have concensus to speak for. Thanks Team!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
09-19-2011, 09:34 AM
Could we try not to get too off track discussing personality quirks and syntax? If they said it using smoke signals it wouldn't make the message any less important.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
09-19-2011, 10:13 AM
I agree with Dassem_Ultor that it is not our fleet's job, nor is it TSI's job, to balance the game. The developers need to get a 5 man team together and play the game, and they need to strive to be good. They also need to do this on both sides (Feds and Klings) to understand how changes affect the balance between factions.

Qew (Klingons) and TSI (Feds) can give our opinions on powers and give a detailed reasoning about an issue, but it has to be up the developers to make the decision. They should be the ones making an unbiased decision, but they have to understand *why* they are making the decisions they implement. The only way is if they actually play their game. Blindly throwing changes into the mix does nothing. The balance is just getting worse and worse as a result.

However, I do not agree that game balance should be based around PUG play. For example, Tact team I feel was an easy cop out to make escorts in pugs more survivable. As a result, premade play has become a little ridiculous with tact teams (an ENSIGN power) single handedly making everyone invincible long enough for actual heals to fly their way. Games that are balanced for top tier play *are* balanced for lower tier play. Otherwise you get a shallow experience for both.

As for the whole PvP PvE community thing, there is simply no denying that there is a *massive* gap between the two. This is not meant to offend anyone but PvE players are really, really bad. Theyre usually the ones in unspecced cruisers with EPtS III, not distributing their shields and even when given 5 heals still pop instantly. We all know this type of player. This game has a huge skill gap, and there is a *very* fine line between a viable ship build/player and a completely useless one. This is partly the player's fault, and partly the fact that there are no resources in game or online on how to play the game properly.

Overall though, PvPers are frustrated. No new content in 21 months. Balance changes that are completely ridiculous. However, worst of all, there has always been a disconnect between PvPers and Developers. PvPers should *not* have to argue in TTS channel with developers about how certain powers actually work. The developers should already know. Things like Torp Spread should have never been released. Developers alone should have realized how broken it was, but even after it was an the PvP community went crazy over it, the feedback was ignored and TS made it to Holodeck.

That kind of attitude is why people like Hurleybird are upset. People who have been calm for 21 months and seeing no results. Clearly being calm and giving feedback is not working, so now people just dont care and are being aggressive. Is it right? No. But I can see why he is frustrated, because I am as well.
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