Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
10-07-2011, 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Not correct, the Nemesis version was in Nemesis, so it is canon.

http://ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/sovereign.htm

The fleet that was supposed to meet the Enterprise was pulled due to budget constraints, not the Enterprise.
He's not talking about that. The Sovereign did get some refining for Nemesis, but there was originally supposed to be a "Refit" version of the Enterprise E at the very end of the movie, after they'd rebuilt the front half of the saucer section, there's some concept sketches for it at the very bottom of the page you linked. It had some subtle but substantive changes to the design that a lot of people seem to like. However it was never on the screen so it's not canon.

Not that being non-canon makes it impossible to add to the game, as people have pointed out, but demanding that something that never got past the concept sketch stage be given as much weight as something that appeared on screen (and of the canon ships) or was a major player in the extended universe (like the Luna) is kinda silly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
10-08-2011, 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feor View Post
He's not talking about that. The Sovereign did get some refining for Nemesis, but there was originally supposed to be a "Refit" version of the Enterprise E at the very end of the movie, after they'd rebuilt the front half of the saucer section, there's some concept sketches for it at the very bottom of the page you linked
Thanks for the info on the distinction.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
10-08-2011, 01:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiiliitiila
Gee I had no Idea how dispersed the licenses were for the various pieces of Star Trek stuff.
It's a mess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiiliitiila
I say we all design our own ships copyright them and then give the rights to cryptic for kicks and giggles!

Yup,
Quiiliitiila
We can't even do that.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...68&postcount=4
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
10-08-2011, 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feor View Post
He's not talking about that. The Sovereign did get some refining for Nemesis, but there was originally supposed to be a "Refit" version of the Enterprise E at the very end of the movie, after they'd rebuilt the front half of the saucer section, there's some concept sketches for it at the very bottom of the page you linked. It had some subtle but substantive changes to the design that a lot of people seem to like. However it was never on the screen so it's not canon.

Not that being non-canon makes it impossible to add to the game, as people have pointed out, but demanding that something that never got past the concept sketch stage be given as much weight as something that appeared on screen (and of the canon ships) or was a major player in the extended universe (like the Luna) is kinda silly.
Yep this is what i'm talking about.

http://johneaves.wordpress.com/2010/...final-e-small/

And Mister_Dee if you believe it is not canon well that is up to you. Since it has been designed and it is the finalized one and was going to be in the nemesis but they change their mind its still canon no matter what.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
10-08-2011, 06:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Wow, that's... I'm speechless.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
10-08-2011, 06:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiiliitiila
Wow, that's... I'm speechless.
It's actually pretty standard for just about any game company. Especially one with an international audience like STO.

Unless your on their staff at the time you design the ship, or you at least sign a contract before you start on the design. (as happened with the Odyssey) you own the ship, no mater what you sign over to cryptic. They can buy it from you I believe, but you can't just give it to them.

Which means that if they do something with it that you don't like, there is potential you can sue them. And even if it's a lawsuit they cannot possibly lose, it's still nothing but bad press for them that they don't want.

And this can be even worse in some countries as copyright laws vary from place to place. In Germany, for example, you can't even sell your copyright to something, if you design it, you own it forever (or at least until 50+ years after you die) and no amount of contracts or money lets someone else take ownership of it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
10-08-2011, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAJ_2011
And Mister_Dee if you believe it is not canon well that is up to you. Since it has been designed and it is the finalized one and was going to be in the nemesis but they change their mind its still canon no matter what.
Well, I guess this will end up as a somewhat long response but since I recognise a spirit at least as passionate about Trek as myself and we've bumped into each other in one way on another for a while now I'd like to formulate a proper response.

There is a hughe disparity between what I'd like to see in this game and what I think is possible to see in this game.
The reason why I often write that something is not likely or not possible is not to annoy people or because I don't want it.
If certain things were possible I'd ditch my T5 Vor'cha on my KDF Engineer and use the TNG-era refit of the Emperor Heavy Battlecruiser from "Klingon Academy" I designed for a personal "Birth of the Federaton Mod".

And since we can't submit our shipdesigns I won't get a chance to fly the Romulan D7 refit for the (post-)Nemesis era I designed either:

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8552/...ce2facetop.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8...ce2facesid.jpg
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5...ulanr7side.jpg
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/695...lanr7front.jpg
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1...anr7bottom.jpg
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/7...mulanr7002.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2184/...tlebaydeta.jpg

But as we know some things are not possible.

Several years ago I tried to make a Star Trek mod for a game noone knows about, it's called "Starshatter".
The project went down for various personal reasons but back then I read tons of background and also "licensed" material including "Star Fleet Battles" and also the various materials from FASA and more recent material.
And back then I wondered why ships like the rather interesting and cool D-10 from FASA never appeared anywhere or why SFC3 had such a short list of Klingon ships while SFC2 had so many designs that were at least as advanced as the K't'inga we saw in SFC3.
And back then I bumped into the problem of "canon".
So it's not about what I want, or what I'd love to see.

It's about the official definition of "canon" which can't even agree whether material from deleted scenes should be regarded as canon or whether scenes that were added for DVD releases should be considered canon or only the version of the film that was shown in the theatres.
But the offical definiton is when it's not in the movie...it's not in the movie.
Hence the Klingons didn't get a new generation of Birds of Prey for DS9
http://johneaves.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/97/
and the Enterprise-E didn't get its refit the way it's shown on Eave's page.
And I don't like it any more than you do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
10-08-2011, 03:08 PM
I'm only quoting from what John Eaves has posted. As for canon well it is in the eye of the beholder since this is just a sci-ficton franchise. If it isn't canon then there should be to much of a problem it is even mentioned in sto timeline twice that the E had a major repair and refit which we see at the end of nemesis than its is mention in the year 2385 that the E yet again had another major refit because federeation/starfleet decided to change the sovereign class to more exploration/scinece vessel instead of it being more towards a combat vessel. Anyway I hope and wish they use in sto but i have asked CapnLogn and he has mentioned the the sovereign class is been pushed to low priorty on the list of sorting out ships but he will only do miner changes. Hopfully since there has been talk about a new series being picthed which is post/voyager/nemesis I am hoping they will use the sovereign refit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
10-08-2011, 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAJ_2011
I'm only quoting from what John Eaves has posted. As for canon well it is in the eye of the beholder since this is just a sci-ficton franchise.
Unfortunately Canon isn't in the eye of the beholder. Canon means what is considered a legitimate and official part of the story, by the people who own the story. Just because someone who worked on the story came up with something, the fact that it was never shown on screen means that (for whatever reason) the people in charge of the story didn't sign off on it, and so it's not canon until they say otherwise.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
10-08-2011, 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feor View Post
Unfortunately Canon isn't in the eye of the beholder. Canon means what is considered a legitimate and official part of the story, by the people who own the story. Just because someone who worked on the story came up with something, the fact that it was never shown on screen means that (for whatever reason) the people in charge of the story didn't sign off on it, and so it's not canon until they say otherwise.
Well if that is what you believe than its surts me. My prove comes from Johns Eaves himself, his website and memory alpha and more which i'm not listing. So where is you proof?. As i have mentioned there are several websites which say they had it orignal in nemesis but took it out due to money not because it was effecting star trek in anyway. It is all canon if the people who created star trek say or show it is and can be opened to interepretion it is not set in stone. Since nemesis was changed due to money problems and nothing else its still Canon.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:46 AM.