Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
10-09-2011, 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethanatos View Post
I don't think CBS is fully aware of the fan's point of view on it and fans are what make any story profitable.

Addressing point 2, we were always able to buy ships but we were assigned a token to get 1 free at promotion without grinding for it. With the f2p system we are forced to buy a ship either with cpoints for real cash or through a godaweful amount of grinding.

Canonwise, captains were not outfitted with state of the art equipment for free, sure Picard, Kirk, and the main characters were ... eventually, but the Stargazer wasn't a new ship when Picard got it, Riker was to be assigned an old ship (the Melbourn , not a new ship) which he turned down again.

The argument here is more about our choices being forcibly removed and written out of the game than anything else, and choice has always been a defining principle of Star Trek and the Federation.
I think you are under a great misunderstanding here:
Do you honestly believe that CBS really cares how Cryptic gets money for the licence fee they have to pay for STO?
I doubt it.

The point is that Cryptic was ways to nice to STOs players when the game started. (in regards of ships)
Not a single MMO gies you the strongest available armor (what a ship bassically is) just because you have gained 10 levels.
Some might give you a quest to recieve such armors at certain levels but none gies them out for free.

An honestly, playing through Cmdr with a LTcmdr ship is not really that hard, even when using white equip only.
It was actually pretty refreshing having a challenge for once without turning Elite mode on.

The only thing I would complain about is the time you have to grind for a Mark X torpedo

About the grinding for your ship:
When my tribble toon leveld up to RAL I got 10K dilithium as well as a ship discount token - making the ship cost 20k.
And sorry but grinding 10K for a ship actually happens during the leveling process.
Except of course you never do dailies, but well thats your problem then and not the systems.

I concur that they should adjust the Item-prices but the ship cost is fully reasonable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
10-09-2011, 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt_Dracon_Darknight View Post
I think you are under a great misunderstanding here:
Do you honestly believe that CBS really cares how Cryptic gets money for the licence fee they have to pay for STO?
I doubt it.

The point is that Cryptic was ways to nice to STOs players when the game started. (in regards of ships)
Not a single MMO gies you the strongest available armor (what a ship bassically is) just because you have gained 10 levels.
Some might give you a quest to recieve such armors at certain levels but none gies them out for free.

An honestly, playing through Cmdr with a LTcmdr ship is not really that hard, even when using white equip only.
It was actually pretty refreshing having a challenge for once without turning Elite mode on.

The only thing I would complain about is the time you have to grind for a Mark X torpedo

About the grinding for your ship:
When my tribble toon leveld up to RAL I got 10K dilithium as well as a ship discount token - making the ship cost 20k.
And sorry but grinding 10K for a ship actually happens during the leveling process.
Except of course you never do dailies, but well thats your problem then and not the systems.

I concur that they should adjust the Item-prices but the ship cost is fully reasonable.
In Star Trek as well as in the game the ship is just as much of a character as the captain. The Enterprise herself got almost the same amount of screentime as Picard or Kirk as did Voyager and Archer's Enterprise. Unless I am flying through space shipless, this arguement is invalid. The ships are also necessary for the additional BO slots and weapons slots so they are not armor, and since the ships themselves have no holds, they aren't even backpacks. I know I don't name my uniform, I do name my ship.

And no, I would rather have a root canal than grind dailies though constant dailies may well be a valid therapy to replace full-frontal labotomies.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
10-09-2011, 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethanatos View Post
In Star Trek as well as in the game the ship is just as much of a character as the captain. The Enterprise herself got almost the same amount of screentime as Picard or Kirk as did Voyager and Archer's Enterprise. Unless I am flying through space shipless, this arguement is invalid. The ships are also necessary for the additional BO slots and weapons slots so they are not armor, and since the ships themselves have no holds, they aren't even backpacks. I know I don't name my uniform, I do name my ship.

And no, I would rather have a root canal than grind dailies though constant dailies may well be a valid therapy to replace full-frontal labotomies.
Actually Spock traveld through a short distance without having a ship or shuttle, (using a spce suit), so the argument is still valid.

Furthermore,
you can actually keep the t2 ship as long as you want, even your t-1 ship so your argument is actually the invalid one.
Your battles will take a bit longer than with a state of the art ship but it is still possible to miss out a tier.
I know because I did it myself. It got a bit though when I hit Cmdr 8, but I still managed to do it just fine.

Do you think Picard our Kirk could go to SFC and start saying: 'Sir, I need a new vessel, those pesky romulans are far better equipped than my ship is. I know I jusyt got the enterprise, but hey why not renaming the USS Sovereign into Enterprise and make it an Enterprise class?... Yeah i know she is still experimental, but hey I want to "pew pew" these green blooded sly *******s isntead of having to fight a minute longer.'


No longer having a game where you could actually go AFK the rest of the battle after pressing a single BOFF ability is actually an improvment, not a downgrade.
óR DO you think all those Miranda captains, the show, could go to Starfleet and just ask for a new ship, because the emenies vesels were better? - No. They had to make the best they could out of it.
And yes there were things they couldn't do because of their ship - And this is represented by the BOFF abilities.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
10-09-2011, 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt_Dracon_Darknight View Post
Actually Spock traveld through a short distance without having a ship or shuttle, (using a spce suit), so the argument is still valid.

Furthermore,
you can actually keep the t2 ship as long as you want, even your t-1 ship so your argument is actually the invalid one.
Your battles will take a bit longer than with a state of the art ship but it is still possible to miss out a tier.
I know because I did it myself. It got a bit though when I hit Cmdr 8, but I still managed to do it just fine.

Do you think Picard our Kirk could go to SFC and start saying: 'Sir, I need a new vessel, those pesky romulans are far better equipped than my ship is. I know I jusyt got the enterprise, but hey why not renaming the USS Sovereign into Enterprise and make it an Enterprise class?... Yeah i know she is still experimental, but hey I want to "pew pew" these green blooded sly *******s isntead of having to fight a minute longer.'


No longer having a game where you could actually go AFK the rest of the battle after pressing a single BOFF ability is actually an improvment, not a downgrade.
óR DO you think all those Miranda captains, the show, could go to Starfleet and just ask for a new ship, because the emenies vesels were better? - No. They had to make the best they could out of it.
And yes there were things they couldn't do because of their ship - And this is represented by the BOFF abilities.
I did the same thing on tribble and it wasn't fun because I had no choice in the matter, since fun is the point to any game one would think that would be the priority.

Kirk and Picard both got shiny new ships for their trouble as did Sisko when the Defiant did the big firework and he got the Sao Paolo (renamed Defiant)

I agree that combat is a bit too easy on normal, which is why there are other settings that add consequences.

These ships are our characters, not costumes, and not armor, but characters just as much as the bipedal humanoid avatars we have when we are on the surface. Yes, it is sped up too much and always has been but that does not negate the fact that we are our ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
10-09-2011, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethanatos View Post
I did the same thing on tribble and it wasn't fun because I had no choice in the matter, since fun is the point to any game one would think that would be the priority.

Kirk and Picard both got shiny new ships for their trouble as did Sisko when the Defiant did the big firework and he got the Sao Paolo (renamed Defiant)

I agree that combat is a bit too easy on normal, which is why there are other settings that add consequences.

These ships are our characters, not costumes, and not armor, but characters just as much as the bipedal humanoid avatars we have when we are on the surface. Yes, it is sped up too much and always has been but that does not negate the fact that we are our ships.
Yet, none of us is Picard, Kirki or Sisko, plus all of their previous ships got destroyed. So assigning a new ship to them was necessary. The fact that they got a shiny new one instead of a miranda is nothing more than a plot device.
Picard was even the first one to get his hands on the enterprise in the first place, so he was actually just lucky to get her, he could have also gotten an an Excelsior.
Why should every captain get a shiny new ship?
Captains retire too, or get promoted past their seat.
Someone has to take their ships over too.
And honestly: 20 level in one ship is not the end of the world.

And no the ships are still not your character.
Your Toon's skill counts towards the ships ability, not the ships.
The skills name is Escort Captain - not 'My skill'

If you don't like armor call it a battle mount, fact is a ship is a tool.
The only exceptions are organic ships,a s they really are lifeforms,
(Or the Andromeda from 'Andromeda' as the ship is an AI)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
10-09-2011, 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt_Dracon_Darknight View Post
Yet, you are not picard, Kirki or sisko, plus all of their ships got destryed. So assigning a new ship to them was necessary. The fact that they got a shiny new one instead of a miranda is nothing more than a plot device.
Picard was even the first one to get his hands on the enterprise in the first place, so he was actually just lucky to get her, he could have also gotten an an Excelsior.

Why should every captain get a shiny new ship?
Captains retire too, or get promoted past their seat.
Someone has to take their ships over too.
And honestly: 20 level in one ship is not the end of the world.

And no the ships are still not your character.
Your Toon's skill counts towards the ships ability, not the ships.

The skills name is Escort Captain - not 'My skill'

If you don't like armor call it a battle mount, fact is a ship is a tool.
The only exceptions are organic ships,a s they really are lifeforms,
(Or the Andromeda from 'Andromeda' as the ship has an AI)
Wrong, that is the whole point of an mmo, to be the hero. My name may not be Picard, Kirk, or Sisko, but my position is exactly the same, the hero in my own story in the Star Trek universe.

Correct, but when they got promoted, they were assigned new ships. I don't care if they write in a random factor as to what free ship is assigned to you as long as it is at about your level.

Have you actually played this game? Your skillsets do indeed apply to the ship itself, might want to look at the skill list again next time you are on because they actually get more specific to the ship specialization, not less.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
10-09-2011, 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethanatos View Post
Wrong, that is the whole point of an mmo, to be the hero. My name may not be Picard, Kirk, or Sisko, but my position is exactly the same, the hero in my own story in the Star Trek universe.

Correct, but when they got promoted, they were assigned new ships. I don't care if they write in a random factor as to what free ship is assigned to you as long as it is at about your level.

Have you actually played this game? Your skillsets do indeed apply to the ship itself, might want to look at the skill list again next time you are on because they actually get more specific to the ship specialization, not less.

@ RED.
Right and wrong, because every time something really gamechanging happens its not you who has done it. It is not you killing Malygos or Arthas, its Alexstrasza or Tirion Fordrig, you were just weakening them.
You only get to kill minor villians and even they will later be revealed to be killed by someone else than you as soon as the story moves forward.
Most MMos do it this way, everyone can say they were there, no one can claim to have actually killed the foes though when doing lore friendly RP. They also don't say that the first one ever killing the foe killed it, they say a band of heroes/soldiers has helped killing them, or even cut them out for other chars.
Again WoW is a very good example as Onyxia was killed dozens of times by regular players before it was decided that the new King of Stormwind was the one to bring her head to the City gates.

I don't want to say that you can't take anything you did in the game as yours. Don't be surprised though if they decide to beam in Picard in the last moment and let him kill the Borg Queen, to name a more specific example.


@Lime:
And the second sentence is why what actually makes the first one unnecessary.
But since you said that they all got nw ships: They didn't change them every 10 Episodes though, but rather kept them for decades.
And another note: The Enterprise-A was not state of the art.
There was a new ship class, one that would story whise outlast the constitution class by decades too. -> Excelsior.
So did Kirkget an Excelsior when she finally stopped being an experimental ship?
No, Solu was lucky enough to get her, Kirk had to stay with his Constitution and there were things he couldn't do because he had a Constitution.

Picard's Enterprise-D was also not state of the art during Generations, because the first few (properly around 8) Sovereign class ships were already flying around.
None of them got a new ship because it was so funny, but because it was necessary.
look at Janeway, which i have a feeling you were avoiding on purpose, if her voyager would have been destroyed and she and her crew would somehow manage to survive, would she have gotten a nw ship?
I doubt it.
In 'A year of hell' the Voyager was definitely in a state Federation would have rather her than repairing her.

And no, Siskos San paulo was also not a state of the art ship, because the Prometheus was already around, he just managed to get the same ship class.
Also, a ship like the defaint was needed there.

So sorry, all of the Captains you have mentioned did, at a certain point, no longer have state of the art ships, and didn't get new ones until their old ones were destroyed. - Afterwards they did get a newer ship again, but they could have also gotten an older.
Hell they could have given Picard and the rest of the crew a promotion with Picard no longe rbeing a captain and therefore not on a ship and the rest of the crew splitted all over the sector on different ships.

They even did that in one of the movies.
Kirk got promoted away from the captain chair, Scotty was assigned to the Excelsior, McCoy to SFMedical and Uhura as a transporter chief in space dock.
That was Starfleets choice.
Stealing the Enterprise was theirs.

@Plum
I did, did you?
If not: Press [K]-->click on your character--> Choose skill tab. Oh wow what do we find here?!
Skills for captaining a Ship, Quel surprise!

Now try the same when clicking on your ship instead of the Captain... Oh, nothing there...?

Secondly, I chose a random skill, I could have chosen Assault cruiser or whatever. It doesn't matter.
Furthermoe, I have never denied that your ship gets certain buffs from the skill.
Yet its a representation of the captain's ability with this kind of ship.
Also, you don't skill the USS XYZ you still skill Assault cruisers, meaning they apply to every assault cruiser you captain, not just the USS XYZ.

Read the skills names giving Buffs to your ship again.
The skills Weapon maintenance increases your weapon energy when your energy levels are set below 50.
So who maintains that weapon system? Your ship itself?
No your crew does, and you and your first officers are the ones ordering people around to do their jobs right, that is what the skill is.
A representation of your skill with this specific ship class, not more not less.

And even if the skills would be found in the ship's skill tab (which is currently empty) - then changing sship would mean to abandon the ship and loose every skill the old ship had, starting from zero every time you get a new ship.

Edit:
The Assault Cruiser skill actually says 'provides [...] when captaining an Assault cruiser', not 'when being an Assault cruiser, already implying that your character is inside the ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
10-09-2011, 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt_Dracon_Darknight View Post
@ RED.
Right and wrong, because every time something really gamechanging happens its not you who has done it. It is not you killing Malygos or Arthas, its Alexstrasza or Tirion Fordrig, you were just weakening them.
You only get to kill minor villians and even they will later be revealed to be killed by someone else than you as soon as the story moves forward.
Most MMos do it this way, everyone can say they were there, no one can claim to have actually killed the foes though when doing lore friendly RP. They also don't say that the first one ever killing the foe killed it, they say a band of heroes/soldiers has helped killing them, or even cut them out for other chars.
Again WoW is a very good example as Onyxia was killed dozens of times by regular players before it was decided that the new King of Stormwind was the one to bring her head to the City gates.

I don't want to say that you can't take anything you did in the game as yours. Don't be surprised though if they decide to beam in Picard in the last moment and let him kill the Borg Queen, to name a more specific example.


@Lime:
And the second sentence is why what actually makes the first one unnecessary.
But since you said that they all got nw ships: They didn't change them every 10 Episodes though, but rather kept them for decades.
And another note: The Enterprise-A was not state of the art.
There was a new ship class, one that would story whise outlast the constitution class by decades too. -> Excelsior.
So did Kirkget an Excelsior when she finally stopped being an experimental ship?
No, Solu was lucky enough to get her, Kirk had to stay with his Constitution and there were things he couldn't do because he had a Constitution.

Picard's Enterprise-D was also not state of the art during Generations, because the first few (properly around 8) Sovereign class ships were already flying around.
None of them got a new ship because it was so funny, but because it was necessary.
look at Janeway, which i have a feeling you were avoiding on purpose, if her voyager would have been destroyed and she and her crew would somehow manage to survive, would she have gotten a nw ship?
I doubt it.
In 'A year of hell' the Voyager was definitely in a state Federation would have rather her than repairing her.

And no, Siskos San paulo was also not a state of the art ship, because the Prometheus was already around, he just managed to get the same ship class.
Also, a ship like the defaint was needed there.

So sorry, all of the Captains you have mentioned did, at a certain point, no longer have state of the art ships, and didn't get new ones until their old ones were destroyed. - Afterwards they did get a newer ship again, but they could have also gotten an older.
Hell they could have given Picard and the rest of the crew a promotion with Picard no longe rbeing a captain and therefore not on a ship and the rest of the crew splitted all over the sector on different ships.

They even did that in one of the movies.
Kirk got promoted away from the captain chair, Scotty was assigned to the Excelsior, McCoy to SFMedical and Uhura as a transporter chief in space dock.
That was Starfleets choice.
Stealing the Enterprise was theirs.

@Plum
I did, did you?
If not: Press [K]-->click on your character--> Choose skill tab. Oh wow what do we find here?!
Skills for captaining a Ship, Quel surprise!

Now try the same when clicking on your ship instead of the Captain... Oh, nothing there...?

Secondly, I chose a random skill, I could have chosen Assault cruiser or whatever. It doesn't matter.
Furthermoe, I have never denied that your ship gets certain buffs from the skill.
Yet its a representation of the captain's ability with this kind of ship.
Also, you don't skill the USS XYZ you still skill Assault cruisers, meaning they apply to every assault cruiser you captain, not just the USS XYZ.

Read the skills names giving Buffs to your ship again.
The skills Weapon maintenance increases your weapon energy when your energy levels are set below 50.
So who maintains that weapon system? Your ship itself?
No your crew does, and you and your first officers are the ones ordering people around to do their jobs right, that is what the skill is.
A representation of your skill with this specific ship class, not more not less.

And even if the skills would be found in the ship's skill tab (which is currently empty) - then changing sship would mean to abandon the ship and loose every skill the old ship had, starting from zero every time you get a new ship.
I wasnt' really avoiding Janeway because it doesn't apply to the argument by your own logic, they were nowhere near Starfleet and would have had to survive by getting a Delta quadrant ship or flying around in shuttles to get home had Voyager been destroyed.

I think we are at an impasse here though, I choose to play the hero and you choose to play supporting cast, these are both conscious decisions that we made and not that were made for us and both have their good points from a rp perspective though I do believe that STO tends to lean in the hero direction more than supporting cast, again, personal opinion.

None of the ships are really "new" except for the Cryptic created ones and they aren't so much new as specific to the game.The purchased ships are not even really better, just different, I do have them all so I know of what I speak in this case.

As I have all of the CStore ships already, you might ask why I am arguing this point at all, it's because I do not wish the game to die and the gating as implemented on Tribble limits play far too much by enforcing grinds, if not for ships, then for equipement to loadout said ships. I have in no way stated that they need to give us uber ships with the ultimate loadout, we still need to work for items, we still need to achieve goals or the game is utterly pointless but we should be given the basic tools to achieve those goals.

Looking at the ships as clothing or armor is not correct, comparing a ship to a WoW battlemount is inexact since we cannot fight in space without our ships, you can fight in WoW without a mount. The ships are also far more than basic transportation, they are a part of a captain's character just as much as the ground avatar itself.

Still I think at this point, neither of is is going to change the other's mind on this subject and the ship status is only a part of my issue with this version of F2P. limiting arguments to a single specific doesn't make any difference to the overall direction of the game. Ships, gated missions, grinding for dilithium for loadouts or ships, gated currency, limits on refining, limits on gameplay are the issues more than just one specific problem.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
10-09-2011, 02:09 PM
Some of the arguments against getting a ship at rank-up are absolutely silly. This is not an episode of a TV series or a movie. The developers have chosen to strongly associate ship type with level. Unlike in the films and series, we're extremely limited in what we can do in each ship. If you choose to stay in the Miranda or a T2, you will be limited to Ensign and Lieutenant boff skills.

That limits progression. In an MMO, you are rewarded for leveling. This is true in successful f2p titles as well as p2p titles. In STO, the ship is your character just like your ground avatar. The ship also fulfills the role of visually communicating your level, just like having spiffy armour does in LOTRO, DDO, or WoW. There are always visual indicators of a player's level which serve to communicate to others that this player has spent time leveling in the game.

D'Angelo has thankfully admitted that Cryptic didn't pay attention to the prices of dilithium-based items during this build. This will hopefully be a long beta, espeically at the slow one build per week (even for minor fixes like fixing the power store) pace Cryptic is moving. Hopefully we won't see f2p release before November at the earliest.

RIght now there are two fundamental problems with STO's F2P build:

1. The dilithium economy is out of balance. Not enough dilithium is rewarded to purchase ships at rank-up and gear out a ship and ground crew. The ship was never something that had a cost associated with it, unless you wanted extras. It was always free. So, Cryptic decided to introduce a cost for the ship in addition to making radical changes to the economy.

2. The incentives for subscribing are mediocre at best. Unlike Turbine (or even Champions Online), there's nothing particularly compelling in the Gold matrix. I could purchase the unlocks I need for far less than the cost of a yearly subscription.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
10-09-2011, 03:47 PM
You people are whining about a test server that still has maybe 4 to six more patches to go on it before they take that info and transition STO to a f2p game. They are still working on the details of the system, haven't put the remastered borg missions in yet, made adjustments to the space skills or made additional system connection improvements to the core game to reduce loading time. As for the people who complain that this isn't a star trek game, what do YOU WANT?????? EVERY EPISODE OF STAR TREK HAD SOME AMOUNT OF CONFLICT IN IT!!!!!! You want dystopian? Look at the Warhammer universe by games workshop. It is infinitely worse than what you think Cryptic has made the trek universe to be.

Starfleet was and is always a military organization dedicated to maintaining peace, exploring the galaxy is a lot more dangerous than it looks., not everyone is going to like you showing up to say "Hi!" They don't start fights but they do try to finish them. Even Picard got his war on several times in both the series and movies. The Enterprise D had more than enough fire power to destroy several planets. You could bomb a world, set fire to the biosphere with plasma like the Klingons did, blow up super-volcanoes or regular volcanoes and freeze the world, strip the magnetic field off the core and charbroil with solar radiation from the parent star or even release a gas that's fatal to the inhabitants but not humans.

If the devs REALLY listened the the few players who hate Cryptic version of Star Trek and made the one they want, it would become a single faction game with no combat, no ship mode (bridge control only with crew dialog to tell the captain whats happening) no levels and you only fly one (1) ship chosen but not viewable except via the MSD (master Systems Display) board in engineering. Travel time would be realistic (log in, plot a course, log out and check back in 3 days to 5 weeks (realtime) to see if you've gotten to where you wanted to go) and do various scanning mini games to represent "exploring"

WOULD YOU PAY $15 A MONTH TPLAY THE GAME LISTED ABOVE?????

End of Rant
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