Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Seeing as i don't see a sticky thread anywhere to give feedback, i will post my thoughts here.
I would have posted in one of the other threads but it would have possibly gotten lost and i believe the level of detail in this response warrants its own thread

I'm not specifically sure what Cryptics intentions are when designing the new space skill system?

Generally in space powers and PVP there are 3 roles / classes.

1. Damage - Tactical
2. Debuff / Drain / Science Powers - Science
3. Healer - Engineer

I would have thought the new skill system would be designed to allow a player to pick a role and spec it out should they choose to do so, while also allowing them to go for a hybrid mix should they choose at the cost of less points in each respective field.

So if a player wanted to go full damage spec with full points in damage powers and his starship powers they could do so, but not have points for healing or science. If they wanted to they could then lower some of their points to gain some healing or science powers should they choose to.

Another example would be a player could fully spec a science route but not have any point in damage skills, but could then lower some of his science skills in order to gain damage skills if he wished to make a hybrid.

Right now the current skill system is flawed in that you can't really spec any route except healer. It punishes a player should they wish to go the tactical route. Most of the tactical skills are TIER5, before tactical was the easiest to spec into now its the hardest. Even worse the bop / defiant player is punished also , should you wish to spec into cloak you can't without sacrificing your damage potential.

All the healing skills are at the lower tiers except aux performance, healer as a class is now the eaisest to spec into, You can fully spec healing and gain weapon damage. Science is also hard to spec into and tactical is by far the hardest. Complete bias towards heal zombie beam cruisers while tac escorts that want to spec cannons / torps and go full weapons can't spec out without gimping your ship survivability

Proposed changes.

1. Move all baseline starship skills like shield strength, hull strength, movement and base power skills and basic damage skills go to tier 1 and 2

2. Making each class have equal number of skills in each tier from T3 thought to T5, so with this change we have a healer route , tactical route and science route while still allowing room for hybrids, while keeping the main damage and healing and science skills in the high tiers so you can't be master of all trades.

Proposed skill tree is as follows.


T1 -

Starship weapon training
Starship warp core efficiency
Structural integrity
Starship hull plating

Starship shield systems
Starship batteries



T2 -

Starship energy weapons
Starship projectile weapons
Starship Maneuvers
Starship Impulse Thrusters
Starship Electo-plasma systems

Starship Targeting systems
Starship Stealth



T3 -

Starship attack patterns
Starship engine performance

Starship shield performance
Starship warp core potential
Starship armor reinforcements

Starship Sensors
Starship Grav Generators



T4 -

Starship energy weapon specialization
Starship inertial dampeners

Starship shield emitters
Starship power insulators
Starship subsystem repair

Starship particle generators
Starship flow capacitors



T5 -

Starship weapon performance
Starship projectile weapon specialization

Starship hull repair
Starship aux performance

Starship countermeasure systems
Starship subspace decompiler



Right now, Healer is a easiest to spec all the healing skills are at lower tiers , science is painful and tactical is damn near impossible.

This change would allow everyone to spec a role or partial spec hybrid and restore class skill point balance.

I have studied the skill tree and i believe this to be the most balanced approach.

Please post your comments / feedback. Thank you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
11-05-2011, 01:03 AM
I wonder what cryptic was thinking about when they redid the space skills?

The current skills tree on Holodeck works just fine and didn't need many changes to it here on tribble, just needed the energy weapons and references to ship classes removed.

Speak with any other MMO player out there and their going to say this new system takes the skill out of the spec'in characters now.

Cryptic, You need a rethink on this one, not just minor tweeks here and there :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
11-05-2011, 06:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
Seeing as i don't see a sticky thread anywhere to give feedback, i will post my thoughts here.
I would have posted in one of the other threads but it would have possibly gotten lost and i believe the level of detail in this response warrants its own thread

I'm not specifically sure what Cryptics intentions are when designing the new space skill system?

Generally in space powers and PVP there are 3 roles / classes.

1. Damage - Tactical
2. Debuff / Drain / Science Powers - Science
3. Healer - Engineer

I would have thought the new skill system would be designed to allow a player to pick a role and spec it out should they choose to do so, while also allowing them to go for a hybrid mix should they choose at the cost of less points in each respective field.

So if a player wanted to go full damage spec with full points in damage powers and his starship powers they could do so, but not have points for healing or science. If they wanted to they could then lower some of their points to gain some healing or science powers should they choose to.

Another example would be a player could fully spec a science route but not have any point in damage skills, but could then lower some of his science skills in order to gain damage skills if he wished to make a hybrid.

Right now the current skill system is flawed in that you can't really spec any route except healer. It punishes a player should they wish to go the tactical route. Most of the tactical skills are TIER5, before tactical was the easiest to spec into now its the hardest. Even worse the bop / defiant player is punished also , should you wish to spec into cloak you can't without sacrificing your damage potential.

All the healing skills are at the lower tiers except aux performance, healer as a class is now the eaisest to spec into, You can fully spec healing and gain weapon damage. Science is also hard to spec into and tactical is by far the hardest. Complete bias towards heal zombie beam cruisers while tac escorts that want to spec cannons / torps and go full weapons can't spec out without gimping your ship survivability

Proposed changes.

1. Move all baseline starship skills like shield strength, hull strength, movement and base power skills and basic damage skills go to tier 1 and 2

2. Making each class have equal number of skills in each tier from T3 thought to T5, so with this change we have a healer route , tactical route and science route while still allowing room for hybrids, while keeping the main damage and healing and science skills in the high tiers so you can't be master of all trades.

Proposed skill tree is as follows.


T1 -

Starship weapon training
Starship warp core efficiency
Structural integrity
Starship hull plating

Starship shield systems
Starship batteries



T2 -

Starship energy weapons
Starship projectile weapons
Starship Maneuvers
Starship Impulse Thrusters
Starship Electo-plasma systems

Starship Targeting systems
Starship Stealth



T3 -

Starship attack patterns
Starship engine performance

Starship shield performance
Starship warp core potential
Starship armor reinforcements

Starship Sensors
Starship Grav Generators



T4 -

Starship energy weapon specialization
Starship inertial dampeners

Starship shield emitters
Starship power insulators
Starship subsystem repair

Starship particle generators
Starship flow capacitors



T5 -

Starship weapon performance
Starship projectile weapon specialization

Starship hull repair
Starship aux performance

Starship countermeasure systems
Starship subspace decompiler



Right now, Healer is a easiest to spec all the healing skills are at lower tiers , science is painful and tactical is damn near impossible.

This change would allow everyone to spec a role or partial spec hybrid and restore class skill point balance.

I have studied the skill tree and i believe this to be the most balanced approach.

Please post your comments / feedback. Thank you.
I like where you are heading with this. In my opinion, there are 3 roles that you can play:
1) Damage
2) Healing (which substitues for tanking most of the time)
3) Control

I believe that the skills to perform the role to the highest degree, the other role abilities should suffer. So, if you are a tank / healer, your damage and control abilities should be weak, etc. The same goes for the Damage role... if you can do high damage, your ability to survive or control should be weak.

So, the skills that help with the most damage, control, or healing should be Tier 5, and so on down to Tier 1 which is the generic skills that most captains would have (basic weapon training, power levels, etc.)

I believe that skills to increase your shield and HP strength should be around Tier 3, and resistances should be around Tier 2. Basic weapons / stealth / basic power level abilites / etc. should be around Tier 2 (or Tier 1)

Also, I think there is too many "power" related abilities... I think taking out the Warp Core Efficiency / Performance is needed, and instead, grant that extra power into the specific power abilities (shields, weapons, Aux, Engine)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
11-05-2011, 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adyreon
I like where you are heading with this. In my opinion, there are 3 roles that you can play:
1) Damage
2) Healing (which substitues for tanking most of the time)
3) Control

I believe that the skills to perform the role to the highest degree, the other role abilities should suffer. So, if you are a tank / healer, your damage and control abilities should be weak, etc. The same goes for the Damage role... if you can do high damage, your ability to survive or control should be weak.

So, the skills that help with the most damage, control, or healing should be Tier 5, and so on down to Tier 1 which is the generic skills that most captains would have (basic weapon training, power levels, etc.)
At least one person gets it.

Currently tribble skilltree is so horribly unbalanced, i really hope it gets some drastic changes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
11-05-2011, 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adyreon
I believe that the skills to perform the role to the highest degree, the other role abilities should suffer. So, if you are a tank / healer, your damage and control abilities should be weak, etc. The same goes for the Damage role... if you can do high damage, your ability to survive or control should be weak.
This is exactly what I have experienced when I re-skilled my Tactical and my Science toons.
I had to make sacrifices in my resists to CC to make my Tac a Survivable Damage dealer and had to sacrifice my damage out put to make a Science that can effectively CC and still have survivabilty.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
11-06-2011, 12:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
At least one person gets it.

Currently tribble skilltree is so horribly unbalanced, i really hope it gets some drastic changes.
Did you read? They clearly said this isn't final and it isn't balanced.

To balance they need people to use it so they can see what changes need to be made. On paper is one thing, practice is another.

The changes are still new, they need time to see what people can do with it and work it to where it needs to be. Why can't people be patient and give them time to do this?

You'd think these changes went live...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
11-06-2011, 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staalker View Post
Did you read? They clearly said this isn't final and it isn't balanced.

To balance they need people to use it so they can see what changes need to be made. On paper is one thing, practice is another.

The changes are still new, they need time to see what people can do with it and work it to where it needs to be. Why can't people be patient and give them time to do this?

You'd think these changes went live...
As for you first line, i know that so let me quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Rivera View Post
We fully expect that this new system to have some bugs and balance issues. We look forward to your feedback and helping us fine-tune this system.

Al Rivera
Lead Designer
Star Trek Online
So i am giving my feedback on that it sucks, As was requested by the devs, as other people have done, Yes i understand its just the first version but someone had to come up with a first version and its been thrown together without much thought, The tree above i pulled together in 20 minutes is far more balanced and doesn't gimp tac and sci as much.

Feel free to point out any flaws in my idea or are you just another STO fanboi that believes the devs can do no wrong?
The devs spend most of their time making the game, not playing it ( at least no that much), so its up to us as the players to guide them in what works best for the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
11-06-2011, 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
As for you first line, i know that so let me quote



So i am giving my feedback on that it sucks, As was requested by the devs, as other people have done, Yes i understand its just the first version but someone had to come up with a first version and its been thrown together without much thought, The tree above i pulled together in 20 minutes is far more balanced and doesn't gimp tac and sci as much.

Feel free to point out any flaws in my idea or are you just another STO fanboi that believes the devs can do no wrong?
The devs spend most of their time making the game, not playing it ( at least no that much), so its up to us as the players to guide them in what works best for the game.
Fanboi? You must not know me around here. I have been banned for speaking out against Cryptic in the past.

I directly quoted what I was responding to. You said it was unbalanced and needed drastic changes. They already said it themselves....

What's the problem? You just looking for a tussle? Won't get it from me. I quoted you, and clearly responded to that specific quote. I didn't misqoute you. You didn't say you were aware of the devs post...seems to me, you are being a little sensitvive here. As for your idea...I have no thoughts because I didn't read it.

The only thing I read, I quoted and replied to.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
11-06-2011, 11:44 AM
Science really isn't that bad to spec for under the new tree. You have to keep in mind that a lot of "fluff" has been put into this tree and you don't really need most of it. A lot of it is stuff that we don't even have now on Holodeck builds which has been added to the game with the new tree. Things like Starship Sensors, for example, which adds resistance to confuse and placate and bonuses to stealth sight. It's an unnecessary skill and doesn't even affect your DR Debuff or Target subsytems now. Science Team is free anyway. I would hate to see them add more skills to the tree just to make sure everyone has an equal number of boxes for their professions. I think they'd just add more useless "fluff". Another good example is Starship Armor Reinforcements which only gives kinetic resists and no energy resists. There's nothing quite like that currently on Holodeck. They must have had the borg in mind when they put that one in. Another good example is Starship Power insulators. The 75% nerf most Science powers received almost negates any need for that skill at all.

What's really hurt Science was the 75% powers nerf. That is hands down the worst thing about the new skill system for a Sci. It's not that Sci's are hard to skill for.

You have to keep in mind that the devs are partially using this new skill system as an economy sink. Things like weapons specializations were purposely put into T5 because they want you to spend your resources like dilithium or energy credits (skill points - not so much) into buying better weapons. In effect, they are telling players they don't need those skills and can make it up through better gear because no one can afford to put skill points into it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
11-06-2011, 01:09 PM
I really like the basic idea here, and even much prefer your suggested skill tree over the current build on tribble. I'm concerned that the over "simplified" direction they are taking is not necessarily good for customization.

Consider that there are five main systems being Weapons, Hull, Shields, Engines and Deflectors.

Weapons break down into energy and projectile (including mines) types. Tier 1 provides a basic boost to all of these. Tier 2 boosts energy weapons. Tier 3 boosts projectiles. Tier 4 boosts accuracy and damage. Tier 4 boosts critical severity and critical chance. Tier 5 boosts attack patterns.

Hull breaks down into capacity, resistance, and healing. Tier 1 provides boost to all of these. Tier 2 further boosts capacity. Tier 3 boosts resistance. Tier 4 boosts hull related healing skills. Tier 5 boosts capacity, resistance, and healing.

Shields break down into capacity, resistance, and healing. Tier 1 provides a basic boost to all of these. Tier 2 boosts capacity. Tier 3 boosts resistance. Tier 4 boosts shield healing. Tier 5 boosts capacity, resistance, and healing.

Engines break down into power allocation and maneuverability. Tier 1 provides a basic boost to all of these. Tier 2 breaks down into EPS Flow (power transfer rate) and maneuverability. Tier 3 splits into efficiency for all four power systems (grouping all four into one tier but not category. Tier 4 splits into performance for all four power systems (again grouping all four into one tier but not one category. Tier 5 boosts speed, turn rate, inertial dampeners, and resistance to movement disables.

Deflectors have the sciency subsystems like Sensors (confuse, placate), Emitters (Tractor Beam, CPB, PSW), Hazards (Polarize, Hazard Emitters). Tier 1 provides a basic boost to all of these. Tier 2 boosts sensors or resistance to sensors. Tier 3 boosts Emitters or resistance to emitters. Tier 4 boosts Hazards or resistance to hazards. Tier 5 splits to further boost effectiveness for all or to boost resistance for all (counter measures).

Now all of that is missing some things obviously, but while it's wordy it's also fairly intuitive. This makes it possible to create a ship that's moderate or specialized but not one that is great at everything. The idea is to allow someone to make a ship that has high damage output, a weak low hull, with low shield capacity but high resistance, and lots of speed, but no real resistance against movement crowd control. Or a ship that might have low damage output, high hull capacity, high shield capacity, low speed but good counter measures. At any rate, you could imagine all kinds of combinations without allowing someone to have high damage output, high tanking, high crowd control and high counter measures.

I might not be explaining it very well but the power of choice in builds is exciting but built in trade offs (sacrifices) make it more balanced. The current tree might be condensed but condensed isn't fun. Skilling up can be part of the fun so we shouldn't be dumping large quantities of points into a few systems. We should be dumping smaller amounts across many more simple to understand, streamlined categories.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:22 PM.