Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
11-03-2011, 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
We won't becaue this is a human playerbase and in their minds

Federation = humans (which is a terracentrism perpetuated in the shows beyond reason) = the good guys.
Not being Federation automatically makes you the bad guy no matter what you do.
This...
It has alwways been that way...
Gorkon's daughter said it best...
Inalienable, Human rights....even the very name is racist
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
11-03-2011, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khern View Post
Bad guys or good guys, well..

At this point I would say there aren’t any bad or good guys. Except the Undine, Borg, Iconians, Devidians, Breen and Fek’lhr of course.

The Federation sees itself as the good Samaritan yet seems to attempt to enforce its viewpoint on everyone else. Usually because they claim to have the moral high ground. The truth is the Federation follows the doctrine of "might makes right" though they claim to respect other races and their prime directive tells them not to intervene in internal matters. They still meddle as soon as they can think of an excuse. As for being non-violent and non-aggressive, this might once have been true, but the last decades of history and the multitude of wars have left the Federation jaded and far more militarized in its procedures than it used to be.

The Klingons claim to be on a crusade to restore the Empire to former glory and rid the world of Undine infiltration. While this all sounds fine the bottom line is the Klingons are using the age old excuse of being saviors to cover up a greed for territorial expansion. This is very obvious in their thrusts towards Romulan and Federation space. They are using this excuse to satisfy political hunger. The bottom line is they are a warlike race and their code of honor seems to be somewhat flexible depending on individual captains and situations. Their concept of honor can be used as much as an excuse as for enforcing personal conduct and loyalties.

As for Romulans and Cardassians they are both politically scheming militaristic and utilitarian with partially nihilistic attitudes. To put it bluntly, if they see you as an enemy they will be willing to sacrifice half of everything just to have a chance of getting at you. And where the Romulans scheme, the Cardassians plot. The difference is the Romulans are even more dastardly and convoluted in their scheming while Cardassians are somewhat more direct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khern View Post
Actually, I would say the Klingons usually come out on top, unless Sisco, Picard or Kirk are involved.

The Federation was originally saved from the Klingons by the mysterious Organians and the Organian treaty. Whenever there have been large scale conflict and not single incidents the Empire has seemed to hold the upper hand. Good excamples are the alternate universe where Tasha Yar hadn't died and the Ambassador class Enterprise hadn't been destroyed. The Klingon Empire was winning the war and by Picard's assesment the Federation could only last a couple of more weeks or months at most.

Or the short war between the Klingons and Federation before the Dominion war, which weren't in an alternate time line. While Deep Space 9 was held and the Klingons withdrew from that engagment, most of the time they speak of the conflict and reports of the war, systems are lost and things are going less than good.

In Voyager, when we look back to the time of Captain Hikaru Zulu and the Excelsior, it certainly seems a K'tinga is a good match for it. The K'tinga that attacks the Voyager easily gets the Voyager's shields down below 50% before fire is returned, and that is despite it being more than a hundred years older.

Not to argue the point. You are Right. The Klingons do respect the Federation for their strengths. They are worthy advesaries. But the Federation doesn't usually come out on top.
A true and accurate description of the factions and how they seem motivated.

Sadly though, I still feel that in STO the plot-toughness that Sisko, Picard and Kirk displayed is the norm that the Devs are giving the feds ingame to give the sense of being the Hero to the player and the KDF suffers when said player feels they are not tough enough, only to complain and asked for a nerfing/fix, etc.

We as Klingon fans have not gotten that which was well represented in the Genre, the toughness and lethality that Klingons are known for as a species.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
11-05-2011, 08:57 PM
since beta it has occured to me that the good guys have been the klingons.
The federation is corrupted and there resources and loyalties are spread thin.

The only thing I would have done differently if I ran the KDF was attack the federation. It didn't make sence to NOT finish the romulans first. They are weak.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
11-06-2011, 04:03 AM
Lets be honest there is no good guys and no bad guys with both factions. Just two factions following their beliefs that happen to clash with eachother and cause a galactic war killing billions upon billions all the while both factions are taken on the universe at the same time
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
11-10-2011, 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khern View Post
You are right.

It is the political leaders that pull the strings. There certainly do exist truly honorable warriors in the Empire and I am sure the Federation still got its fair share of visionaries and old-school Federation captains as well. The current state of the galaxy must be blamed on the leaders of the various factions. If not all the blame, then 80% of it.
I agree with this assesment. In many ways, the Federation went quickly down hill from the glory days of the early TNG. In the mid to late DS9, the Federation fell hard from its loft position as the idealised future utopia. After fighting in so many previous conflicts, the Dominion alone is NOT the cause of humanity becoming so jaded. George Santayanna said it best, "Those who foregt their history are condemned to repeat it." In many ways the Federation in the 25th century has become more like Rome during the time of Marcus Tullious Cicero. Sad that the Federation is more like Rome than the Romulans have ever been.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
11-10-2011, 07:16 PM
I am trying to lead a peace movement with the Klingon empire, I to feel the klingons are good guys and that they would put there differences aside with the federation in order to fight the Borg and the Undine, I would like point out many federation players feel the same way i do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
11-10-2011, 07:37 PM
The terms good and bad are subjective depending on the point of view. The Nazis thought they were the good guys in a world full lesser (bad) races. Until the civil war many thought slavery was good (there would be few if any African Americans here, in addition looks at the crap that's going down in Africa right now). I am not going to say anything about Christianity because the thread will get locked or deleted. The Sith were seen as evil by the Jedi and expelled to a swamp world to rot. The Borg could see themselves as good because they are destroying individualism, I can kind of see their point, an end to greed, poverty, class establishment and inept bosses would be nice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
11-10-2011, 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mondo80 View Post
The terms good and bad are subjective depending on the point of view. The Nazis thought they were the good guys in a world full lesser (bad) races. Until the civil war many thought slavery was good (there would be few if any African Americans here, in addition looks at the crap that's going down in Africa right now). I am not going to say anything about Christianity because the thread will get locked or deleted. The Sith were seen as evil by the Jedi and expelled to a swamp world to rot. The Borg could see themselves as good because they are destroying individualism, I can kind of see their point, an end to greed, poverty, class establishment and inept bosses would be nice.
The Federation has ended poverty and class establishment and the from the Federation and Klingon viewpoint they are bad because they want to assimilate and all of us.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-10-2011, 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
We won't becaue this is a human playerbase and in their minds

Federation = humans (which is a terracentrism perpetuated in the shows beyond reason) = the good guys.
Not being Federation automatically makes you the bad guy no matter what you do.
First time I've ever seen someone who totally agrees with me on this. In the shows, I find that Humanity is essentially the most enlightened species with all the right package of awesome qualities. Sure, they're not as smart as the Vulcans, nor as strong, as a whole... but their heart, creative spirit, and intuition blow the Vulcans out of the water. The same comparison with any other race is usually thrown in your face throughout the series, and it always seems the mantra is 'we're human, we're awesome aren't we?'.

At any regard, in response to the OP I think one should point out that the Klingons motives are probably dualistic. They ARE collecting tribute. It IS their Empire. They ARE getting to go out and wage war again, which is what they want to be doing. At least they have a 'reasonable' excuse now. I think its a mix just like in real life... at least if they do the story well. I sense, by how things are hinted, that J'mpok is a mega jerk, but using the Undine as a pretense.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
11-10-2011, 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
A true and accurate description of the factions and how they seem motivated.

Sadly though, I still feel that in STO the plot-toughness that Sisko, Picard and Kirk displayed is the norm that the Devs are giving the feds ingame to give the sense of being the Hero to the player and the KDF suffers when said player feels they are not tough enough, only to complain and asked for a nerfing/fix, etc.

We as Klingon fans have not gotten that which was well represented in the Genre, the toughness and lethality that Klingons are known for as a species.
Yes Roach! I still want to be able to put that Ferengi Worm in the infirmary at best (on Drozana). It still amazes me that you can't outright punch him for his impudence. That guy crosses the line with an IMPERIAL klingon in a way that likely would get him stabbed. The interaction with McCoy is also a little oddball as well.
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