Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
11-11-2011, 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by -GEN-Alaris
In short, yes, they got the shaft. And it sucks. One of my mains was a Joined Trill...
Then you haven't understood the new skill system yet.

1) There are less skills now.
Just from that list - Trills used to get +3.3 to Starship Energy Weapons and Starship Projectile Weapons. Now they get 3.3 to Starship Weapons. There is no longer a distinction between these two skills! They still have about the same net effect - your skills with all weapons goes up by about 3.3 (if it wasn't for the next point, which shows you that this 3.3 is actually more in effect than it used to be.)

2) The modifiers are listed now lower than before (technically, the effect is still pretty much the same).
To illustrate:
Most BO skills in the old system now on Holodeck were affected by 3 skills, one Tier 1, one Tier 2 and one Tier 3, 4 or 5. If you added the total of all 3, you got the max effect at roundabout +100 skill total.

Now, you get about the same with a total of +33 from just a single skill maxed out. So the +3.3 actually represents about 3 times more than it used to.
(Scary Math Caveat: It may be that the total value generated by these skills is only 75 % of what was possible on Holodeck. In that case, it's 3.3 x 0.75 = 2.475 times what it used to be. But I don't want to scare anyone with math here. Halloween is over and we don't celebrate it anyway in Germany.)

A lot has changed under the hood. (It still doesn't explain why Engineering Consoles grant only half the energy level bonus they used to, though, same for EPS Flow Regulators loss in value).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
11-11-2011, 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tritium4ever View Post
[b]Holodeck:[]/b]
+3.3 Starship Energy Weapons
+3.3 Starship Projectile Weapons
+3.3 Starship Warp Core Training
+3.3 Starship Engineering Training
+6.7 Starship Operations Training

Tribble:
+3.3 Starship Weapons Training
+3.3 Starship Hull Repair
+3.3 Starship Shield Emitters
Under the new skills, unless +3.3 Hull Repair and +3.3 Shield Emitters is as good as +3.3 Warp Core Training, +3.3 Engineering Training, and +6.7 Operations Training, then we definitely did lose something in the conversion.

It seems to me it's tough to compare, though, since the old and new skills don't necessarily modify the same abilities and stats.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
11-11-2011, 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Then you haven't understood the new skill system yet..
I understand the way the new skill system works, it's not the values I'm bothered about, it's the skills in question.

Leaving aside the weapons skills, the old Joined Trill got bonuses to all eng and sci skills. Now it's just healing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
11-11-2011, 03:08 PM
We deserve retraits
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
11-11-2011, 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Then you haven't understood the new skill system yet.

1) There are less skills now.
Just from that list - Trills used to get +3.3 to Starship Energy Weapons and Starship Projectile Weapons. Now they get 3.3 to Starship Weapons. There is no longer a distinction between these two skills! They still have about the same net effect - your skills with all weapons goes up by about 3.3 (if it wasn't for the next point, which shows you that this 3.3 is actually more in effect than it used to be.)

While this is true that they get the same-ish bonus to weapons, the big issue is the loss of tier 1 skills from the old system. As you know every BOFF ability in the old system was affected by T1 skills, so having a bonus to all T1 skills is a bonus to all BOFF powers.

The problem is, Joined Trill now get a small bonus to a few powers, not every power. The same problem exists with Astrophysicist and Techie and Warp Core Theorist. These traits used to give a much wider reaching bonus than they do now. That the bonus was slightly smaller isn't quite relevant.


Here's a look at Joined Trill vs Bajoran numbers on Tribble right now. I created 2 characters and skipped the tutorial, spent no points, took the engineer BOFF and beamed to Sol system to see what the numbers were like at 100 weapons power.

323 vs 308 Shield healing from EPTS 1

210 (168 DPS) vs 200(160) Phaser array damage
1419 (218 DPS) vs 1352(208) Photon torpedo damage

Doing the same on Redshirt after mucking around in the tutorial..

305 vs 300
207 (165 DPS) vs 200(160)
1397 (215 DPS) vs 1352(208)


Great, right? The Trill bonus is slightly higher on Tribble. Except it only works on weapon damage and heals now, nothing else. It doesn't work on scramble sensors or tachyon beam or gravity well or charged particle burst or cloaking or sensors or any of that anymore. Same issue with the other traits. The only one that works similar to what it used to do is Efficient captain.

Overall these traits were nerfed pretty heavily under that consideration.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
11-11-2011, 04:29 PM
I don't think they nefed joined trills just condinced their sprawled out abilities into 3 more general ones.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
11-11-2011, 04:47 PM
Hmm not too happy with these changes as 2 of my main characters are Joined Trill, however I do understand the changes for the most part but they new skills don't match up so well to the old ones.

Holodeck
+3.3 Starship Energy Weapons (T1)
+3.3 Starship Projectile Weapons (T1)
+3.3 Starship Warp Core Training (T1) - (Now T3 Warp Core Potential)
+3.3 Starship Engineering Training (T1)
+6.7 Starship Operations Training (T1)

Tribble
+3.3 Starship Weapons Training (T1) - (Energy + Projectile)
+3.3 Starship Hull Repair (T1) - (Half of Engineering)
+3.3 Starship Shield Emitters (T1) - (Half of Engineering Training)

Should also add to make it on par with Holodeck
+3.3 Starship Batteries
+3.3 Starship Flow Capacitors (Partial Operation Training)

I think with those 2 additions we will have our 5 T1 skills back and it still gives us a unique all round buff, any other thought?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
11-11-2011, 05:06 PM
Again, the Trill bonus on Holodeck does not just apply a bonus to 5 different skills, it applies a bonus to virtually every space BOFF power because those 5 skills it buffs affect virtually every space BOFF power.

On Tribble, the tier 1 skills affect nothing but the skill itself and the BOFF powers associated with it, which is a fraction of the BOFF powers for the tree, especially for the operations tree.

Whereas before the 6.7 operations buff affected
  • Beam Target Subsystems
  • Energy Siphon
  • Tachyon Beam
  • Gravity Well
  • Tyken's Rift
  • Feedback Pulse
  • Transfer Shield Strength
  • Photonic Officer
  • Photonic Shockwave
  • Hazard Emitters
  • Polarize Hull
  • Jam Sensors
  • Charged Particle Burst
  • Scramble Sensors
  • Viral Matrix
  • Tractor Beam
  • Tractor Beam Repulsors
  • Cloak detection

The 3.3 Warp Core efficiency and Engineering Training buffs affected:
  • Aux to SIF
  • Aux to dampners
  • Aux to Battery
  • Eject Warp Plasma
  • Cloaking/Mask Energy Signature
  • Emergency power to (whatever)
  • Extend Shields
  • Directed Energy Modulation
  • Bonus power (very slight)
  • Aceton Field




However on Tribble the new shield emitter and hull repair buffs now affects:
  • Science Team
  • Transfer Shield Strength
  • Emergency Power to Shields
  • Engineering Team
  • Extend Shields
  • Hazard Emitters
  • Aux to SIF

Compare that list to the above lists.

And in the case of TSS and HE, both of those are buffed LESS than they were on Holodeck, if my estimates are correct, though the others are slightly more powerful. So yes I think it is fair to call that a nerf. But remember other traits are affected too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-11-2011, 06:26 PM
Still... the joined trill get alot more bonus DPS than before...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
11-11-2011, 06:49 PM
People keep forgetting that the remaining skills affect more things AND that a +3 is the equivalent of a +6 under the old system.
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