Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
11-12-2011, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
It has nothing to do with my hopes for STO, it is simply that your logic does not hold up under critical analysis. You talk about the VA token being moved to the 2 year reward, but you completely ignore(because it doesnt support your argument) the fact that subscribers will get 400 points every month. That means at MOST they would have to wait 4 months for the 1600 point ships or 5 months for the 2000 point ships.

However, they dont actually have to wait that long because they will also have the ability to trade DL for CPs. So if they dont want to wait the full 4/5 months, they can trade DL to get however many CPs they need in addition to their monthly stipend to get it sooner. Your argument is flawed because you ignore the facts that dont support your argument and hope other people wont notice. Unfortunately for you that didnt happen.
And to shoot down that argument, they RAISED the prices on most everything, watering down that 400 stipend points. (and broke a promise that Dstahl made to do it) Do you think that was just by chance? Cryptic knows they are giving out stipend points so they counteract this action by raising the prices to counter, not just by the amount of the stipend but by 100% in the excel. (800-1600) Hense, basicly 0 to very little ending effect or even that you, as a paying sub, now get to spend more money. All they had before was us paying at the C-Store and they're hedging their bets on if that new playerbase doesn't show, they still want us paying. Even tho we get a stipend. Do you actualy think that when they start raising the levels and adding tier 6.1 ships or more that this touted stipend will be all you need? At 2000 points per/ship, you'll get a little over 2 per/year. How many toons do you have? Just 2?????? Will you want to wait a full year on getting these new, great, C-Store ships for just your 1 main and 1 alt? I don't think so and neither does Cryptic.

Your thinking that this game will stay the same in items, ships, levels, etc. It will NOT. They will, under this matrix, HAVE to add things, AND FAST, to keep you playing and paying. Your items will be outdated very quickly and unable to compete, in PVE much less PVP. Pay to Win will be rampent and not just for the hardcore PVPers either. You'll NEED these items to progress in even PVE content. What is really the difference in paying for actual content if your gated from that content without paying for the ships/items? Look at where this is all heading. The plan is really very easy to see here. And what of PVP balance? Another one for the way of "creature handler" and "TKM"?

Trading dil for CP is almost a "gold seller" scam, IMHO, nothing more, nothing less. This whole system is based on some1 1st going to the C-Store to BUY points to trade! Will you? Do you have money to burn with trading a real currency for a virtual non-existant currency only good in a game? When these new ships hit, and believe me they will and fast enough to make your head spin, take your stipend and use it for these new ships or will you continue to sell your C-Points for dil? Yeah, I didn't think so. If you actualy look at the system, it's basicly doomed to fail from the very start as it's predicated on some1 spending the money with Cryptic, 1st.

I haven't "ignored" anything, I have maybe thought the entire thing thru a bit more, or maybe just by years of MMO experiece came to a totaly different conclusion. I fully admit, I no longer have on my "rose colored glasses" and believe in fairy tales.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
11-12-2011, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainQuirk View Post
Maybe, but for all the rest I said, the fact that he isolated that one thing (which I later clarified) suggests that I did not make that mistake this time...
Evidently you did not clarify enough for me, no need to be upset.

I was looking for the precise line where missions reach 'dev quality' for you. In my mind, just reusing assets does not utilize the full potential of the developers, as there are artists who don't build missions anyway.


You seem to have a twofold argument. Let me know if my assessment is off-base.

On one hand, you believe that devs could still create 'better than foundry' missions at a breakneck pace. I would argue that this would still take precious time and effort(even just the management time to ensure it all fits together), and then comparisons to 'foundry-speed' don't really apply. Sure, it'd be faster than featured eps, but lots of people love the extra quality in those. In this case, I would just happen to fall on the 'quality' side of the debate, but I see the merits in quantity as well.

The other prong I think you indicate is that even simple missions would still be 'official'. I agree that this would make them seen and played easier, but is what we need really another set of patrol missions? A lot of people don't play those on alts anyway. Dailies like in Eta Eridani are nice, but you can only use the same mobs so many times before it gets stale.


Overall, I think Cryptic is trying to appeal to both of us, and they're trying to staff up and churn out some content at a faster pace. But I would advocate a quality-first model, where they increase production over time, rather than a quantity-first model, where they go back to basics and improve quality over time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
11-12-2011, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
And to shoot down that argument, they RAISED the prices on most everything, watering down that 400 stipend points.
The 4 month(1600 points) and 5 month(2000 points) comments I made in my previous post are talking about the new prices, not the old ones. Therefore your not shooting down my argument, as my argument was already talking about the new prices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
At 2000 points per/ship, you'll get a little over 2 per/year. How many toons do you have? Just 2?????? Will you want to wait a full year on getting these new, great, C-Store ships for just your 1 main and 1 alt? I don't think so and neither does Cryptic.
Ships are account wide, meaning you can use them on every character you have and will ever create. Please at least try to get the correct information about what you are talking about.

Quote:
Trading dil for CP is almost a "gold seller" scam, IMHO, nothing more, nothing less.
And you are completely entitled to your opinion. However, your opinion does not = fact.

Quote:
This whole system is based on some1 1st going to the C-Store to BUY points to trade! Will you?
I, and every other lifer, will be getting 400 points every month at no cost. Therefore I am not going to be spending any additional money to get points, and if I want to trade them for DL to help gear up a new character at end game then I will.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
11-12-2011, 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
The 4 month(1600 points) and 5 month(2000 points) comments I made in my previous post are talking about the new prices, not the old ones. Therefore your not shooting down my argument, as my argument was already talking about the new prices.



Ships are account wide, meaning you can use them on every character you have and will ever create. Please at least try to get the correct information about what you are talking about.



And you are completely entitled to your opinion. However, your opinion does not = fact.
Come on Nagus. Your cherry picking terms, not subject matter now and have been for several postings. The reason why they raised the prices was the stipend you'll be getting so you could pay the same or even more as a LTS than you have been for the last 2 years. You going to wait 4 - 5 months to get a ship with just the stipend or even get rid of that stipend by tradeing it for dil? The ?(s) still remains. Of course your not. How many alts do you have in the exact same ship? I have a few of the C-Store ships and not a toon flys the same ship as the other at end game. Who actualy does have that kinda deal? How will even account unlocks help that? They did help with things that all toons used such as tribbles but that is now subject to "NGE-ed" "take away" development also and no longer account unlocks. Cryptic has taken all things pretty much into consideration and just like Vegas, it's all in their favor in this matrix. Which I really have no problems over, but lets (them and us) just call it for what it actualy is.

Good luck, gotta go for now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
11-14-2011, 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenizenVI
Evidently you did not clarify enough for me, no need to be upset.

I was looking for the precise line where missions reach 'dev quality' for you. In my mind, just reusing assets does not utilize the full potential of the developers, as there are artists who don't build missions anyway.
It's not about the missions being "dev quality". It's about devs actually releasing missions.

We were PROMISED that after the foundry was to be released, that official content would not stop. But it HAS stopped. Through this content drought, only the foundry authors have kept anything new coming, but many do not play foundry content because to them, it isn't worth their time if it isn't official.

We were PROMISED that release of content would resume and the pace would be picked up once PW was officially in control. Release of content has neither resumed, nor has its pace quickened. We have been stagnant since APRIL! That is SEVEN MONTHS of nothing new but stuff we have to pay for on top of our subscriptions. Oh, and they BROKE the foundry for a while there, and have not released one iota of additional resources or features for it, and it is still loaded with bugs. So in terms of a feature that should have made weathering the content drought bearable has not been used to anywhere near its potential, because Cryptic CANNOT BE BOTHERED to support it, even though they are supposedly backed by a company that has plenty of money to throw at it.

Quote:
You seem to have a twofold argument. Let me know if my assessment is off-base.

On one hand, you believe that devs could still create 'better than foundry' missions at a breakneck pace. I would argue that this would still take precious time and effort (even just the management time to ensure it all fits together), and then comparisons to 'foundry-speed' don't really apply. Sure, it'd be faster than featured eps, but lots of people love the extra quality in those. In this case, I would just happen to fall on the 'quality' side of the debate, but I see the merits in quantity as well.
I would say that in the hands of Cryptic mission writers, who have the most intimate understanding of how their tools work, the average missions they could put out using the Foundry would be on par with the best that members of the the community can do.

Quote:
The other prong I think you indicate is that even simple missions would still be 'official'. I agree that this would make them seen and played easier, but is what we need really another set of patrol missions? A lot of people don't play those on alts anyway. Dailies like in Eta Eridani are nice, but you can only use the same mobs so many times before it gets stale.
I'm not talking about patrol missions, or repeatable dailies. I'm talking about actual story missions, released on a weekly basis. Even if each week's mission only takes 10 minutes to run, it's still something new that encourages people to keep coming back. And if they would focus on delivering new assets and features, and if we see them in the official missions first, and then have them released for the community to use in the foundry, then the official missions will always drive player interest.

Each month, they need to release new PvP maps and new STFs. Tie them into the story arc introduced by the weekly missions. Each playstyle needs a dedicated development pod. They need to stop floating people all over the place. They need to run this thing like a viable MMO, staff it up like a viable MMO, and then maybe it will start to really feel like a viable MMO

[/quote]Overall, I think Cryptic is trying to appeal to both of us, and they're trying to staff up and churn out some content at a faster pace. But I would advocate a quality-first model, where they increase production over time, rather than a quantity-first model, where they go back to basics and improve quality over time.[/quote]

Well, the way community members who don't get paid manage to turn out some very high quality foundry missions, I see no reason why Cryptic cannot deliver both quality and quantity. It's about priorities. Right now, converting to an Easter F2P model is top priority and to hell with everything else. Well, whether Cryptic and PW like it or not, "everything else" is what matters to the people who are currently paying (or paid a lot of money in advance) to play the game.

And they are leaving with a bad enough taste in their mouths that they likely will not come back next year, even if it will cost them nothing to do so.

And the majority of western MMO players who may consider a western-oriented F2P model will have nothing to do with an eastern model. So I have a sneaking suspiscion that when F2P goes into effect, they will not see anywhere NEAR the numbers they are expecting. To far too many people, STO already launched, failed to deliver what they want out of an MMO, and are on to other things that they have no desire to leave for the forseeable future. Especially when all of the F2P mechanics somehow manage to hook into a player's wallet to the point where if they played the way PW wants them to, they would pay way more per month than $14.99.

Oh, and let us not forget that KDF players have still been given the shaft in terms of playable content. Making it take longer to unlock KDF content and starting KDF characters further along in rank progression does not change the fact that those who want to play KDF will have far less content that those playing the UFP.

The only thing that will make the extension of this content drought into January truly worth it is if they've been focusing on KDF content to the point where when they make the conversion to the new model, both factions are on equal footing.

But I think we both know that won't be the case.

Cryptic has dragged their feet long enough. All they do is make excuses or apologies for not delivering stuff. I'm tired of it. I know I am not alone.

We've been promised content. Aside from the forthcoming Defera Borg ground invasion, where is it? How many more months after the invasion will we have to wait before the next single content item appears?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
11-14-2011, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainQuirk View Post
We were led to believe that the switchover to PW would usher in a new golden era for the game. And yet, all we have seen is continued stagnation of a product which, by its very nature, should be unceasingly dynamic. The only thing dynamic that is going on is the movement of money from our bank accounts to theirs.

Well at least we're getting the Borg ground invasion of Defera soon. I can understand them taking a long time to develop such a big addition (and yes it IS big), but we also need smaller things added on a monthly and weekly basis.

Every new piece of playable content does NOT need new assets designed from the ground up. If our foundry authors can be creative using pre-existing assets which have not been added to for quite some time, then they bloody well can as well. Only they can deploy directly to the core game thus makeing the content official. They could have had ONE GUY turning out new missions every week since PW took over. But no. Instead, they have spent all this time figuring out ways to suck money from us when F2P goes into effect.

What we should be seeing is a new basic PvE mission each week for each faction. A new PvP mission each month that somehow relates to events mentioned in the basic PvE weekly missions. A new STF-scale mission each month for each faction, again related to the events of the basic PvE missions. Each month we should be seeing new content for all supported playstyles for all factions.

At this stage, as much as I supported the conversion to F2P, I would rather them scrap those plans and focus on making the game WORTH spending money on.

They keep coming out with new ships that people rush to the C-store to buy. But for what? What is the point in getting new ships if there is no new playable content to use them in. It's like a woman having a walk-in closet full of party dresses but she never goes to any parties.

Right now it's set up so all we do is throw them money for stuff that we really don't need and they make no effort to actually get content to us that would make it all worthwhile.

They said they do not intend to gate us from content with money-related stuff. Fine. But get the content out to us. Use official playable content to show off the things that will be sold in the C-store. Make it look cool in the content. Wait a week after the content goes live and people start to say, "That uniform would look cool on my characters," or "That ship looks awesome!", and then release those things on the C-store.

Make stuff that people want to spend money on, and guess what? They'll spend money on it. We do not need to be nickeled and dimed to death due to monetization of EVERY LITTLE THING in the game.

Even if the team is still trying to rebuild itself after the Atari layoffs, surely there are enough people there who can do SOMETHING to keep the game dynamic. They are trying to do all these BIG things when they are not staffed up enough to pull them off on a timely manner. Even if we are forced to endure a ten minute PvE mission per week until they staff up enough to broaden themselves out into all areas and playstyles, it would be more content than we've seen in months.

They don't have to be sad about things not happening if they would get up off their butts and MAKE THEM BLOODY HAPPEN! Just keep it real with what they are capable of. Don't let the reach excede the grasp. I would have shelved the DOFF system and the Borg Ground invasion system and pooled the existing team resources into the problem that the game has had from day one: Not enough playable content.

One person with the right tools and understanding can churn out new missions on a weekly basis. I would assign four people to the task. Three for Klingon missions. One for the Federation. When the total number of Klingon missions equals that of the Federation, I would move two of the Klingon mission writers over to Romulan mission development, leaving one dedicated writer for both UFP and KDF content.

Each writer must be able to produce missions that can be deployed on a weekly basis. Write the missions so they are not linear sequels to each other, but rather, stand alone missions. This way, if the writer has an idea for a mission that could use a piece of new artwork, they can request it from the art team. They can keep that mission on the back burner until the art is ready, releasing other missions in the meantime.

And bling bling bling! New art asset in official mission content? New C-store item for foundry or personal use if applicable.

The art team should focus on creating all sorts of new assets to put in the hands of official mission writers. New ships. New costumes. New interior pieces. New props. Their goal should be to watch every episode of ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY and make note of EVERYTHING they see, from sets to props to every costume that can be clearly definable. And produce a library of digital assets from all that. The writers can have access to all of it. And as it actually gets used in the game, it can become available for C-store purchase.

We all remember the models of cities they used as transitional shots in the series? Well, let someone look at those shots and imagine if you could actually walk around in the spaces seen on the screen. City Exterior Social Hub zone with a massive number of potential doors for foundry OR officvial mission interior areas...

Bring the Trek Universe to life.

This is the stuff they should be doing, in my opinion.
dude i 100% agree of what you have said
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
11-14-2011, 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
Come on Nagus. Your cherry picking terms, not subject matter now and have been for several postings. The reason why they raised the prices was the stipend you'll be getting so you could pay the same or even more as a LTS than you have been for the last 2 years. You going to wait 4 - 5 months to get a ship with just the stipend or even get rid of that stipend by tradeing it for dil? The ?(s) still remains. Of course your not. How many alts do you have in the exact same ship? I have a few of the C-Store ships and not a toon flys the same ship as the other at end game. Who actualy does have that kinda deal? How will even account unlocks help that? They did help with things that all toons used such as tribbles but that is now subject to "NGE-ed" "take away" development also and no longer account unlocks. Cryptic has taken all things pretty much into consideration and just like Vegas, it's all in their favor in this matrix. Which I really have no problems over, but lets (them and us) just call it for what it actualy is.

Good luck, gotta go for now.
so they are goon to up Cstore prices??? for F2P something told me they would even told ppl they would no one didnt wont to beleave me
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