Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
11-14-2011, 08:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
Sure. Its all fun and games until they change the saftey word to fluggaenkdechioebolsen. After that things go downhill.
or whistling as a "safeword" for choking.
Anyway at least in case of the Orions we know they have themselves sold (please note the odd sentence structure) so they can control those poor fools who buy them.
At least it was this way in TOS and earlier.
It would appear this was no longer the case in the later shows, at least there was no mention of Orion slaves in the other shows while the Syndicate is mentioned.
So perhaps slaves are only an issue on worlds beyond the Federation's reach...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
11-14-2011, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
or whistling as a "safeword" for choking.
Anyway at least in case of the Orions we know they have themselves sold (please note the odd sentence structure) so they can control those poor fools who buy them.
At least it was this way in TOS and earlier.
It would appear this was no longer the case in the later shows, at least there was no mention of Orion slaves in the other shows while the Syndicate is mentioned.
So perhaps slaves are only an issue on worlds beyond the Federation's reach...
Well slavery is a dirty word for the Feds I think and clashes with the Orions idea of fairplay, or so my Orion XO tells me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
11-14-2011, 11:56 PM
Slavery is a strange subject and one I haven't given that much thought of in Star Trek terms.

I knew Orions had slaves, and certainly Klingons had slave labor prisons, but how is slavery in Star Trek and how widespread is it? What other races have enforced labor? I know Remans have been and to some degree are still treated as slaves and second class citizens by the Romulans. Certainly the Klingons are exploitive of other races. Do Cardassians have slaves under the Deteppa counsil? Doesn't seem likely though Cardassians did use forced labor as a weapon against the occupied Bajorans. The Borg have ascended beyond slavery being individual and made it the collective state of their civilization, if they can be called a civilization?

Are the Federation the only major power that lack slavery? I am quite certain Deferi don't have slavery, but they are not a major power as such. Ferengi and Breen? Hmm.

How widespread is slavery in Star Trek?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
11-15-2011, 05:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khern View Post
Slavery is a strange subject and one I haven't given that much thought of in Star Trek terms.

I knew Orions had slaves, and certainly Klingons had slave labor prisons, but how is slavery in Star Trek and how widespread is it? What other races have enforced labor? I know Remans have been and to some degree are still treated as slaves and second class citizens by the Romulans. Certainly the Klingons are exploitive of other races. Do Cardassians have slaves under the Deteppa counsil? Doesn't seem likely though Cardassians did use forced labor as a weapon against the occupied Bajorans. The Borg have ascended beyond slavery being individual and made it the collective state of their civilization, if they can be called a civilization?

Are the Federation the only major power that lack slavery? I am quite certain Deferi don't have slavery, but they are not a major power as such. Ferengi and Breen? Hmm.

How widespread is slavery in Star Trek?
Widespread for the KDF enough that one of our DOff missions (i got last night) is , "Send Force laborers to Work camp" or some such where you send some DOffs to a forced labor camp to facillittate the locals to work harder for the Empire..
We also have two other very unique DOff missions involving ritual suicide ( Hegh'bat and Mauk-to"vor: TNG: "Ethics"; DS9: "Sons of Mogh", "Children of Time").
I even had one that called for the Surgical altering of a Klingon so he can infiltrate s federation facility.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
11-16-2011, 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
I don't think he meant good in a economic sense, but good in a cultural and social sense.

"But let me not be understood as admitting, even by implication, that the existing relations between the two races in the slaveholding States is an evil:—far otherwise; I hold it to be a good, as it has thus far proved itself to be to both, and will continue to prove so if not disturbed by the fell spirit of abolition. I appeal to facts. Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually."

-John C. Calhoun
There were many in the South who also beleived slavery was bad as well, especially on the religous front. Many of the poorer farmers never had slaves, in fact a minority of the South were slave owners. It was the plantation owners who had the government order the Postal Service to eliminate any Abolitionist materials going to the South. Calhoun , "the Mouth of the South" was one of this sort. The historical fact of the "golden rule" prevailed in the South in regards to the slavery issue; "Those with the gold, rule."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
11-16-2011, 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khern View Post
Slavery is a strange subject and one I haven't given that much thought of in Star Trek terms.

I knew Orions had slaves, and certainly Klingons had slave labor prisons, but how is slavery in Star Trek and how widespread is it? What other races have enforced labor? I know Remans have been and to some degree are still treated as slaves and second class citizens by the Romulans. Certainly the Klingons are exploitive of other races. Do Cardassians have slaves under the Deteppa counsil? Doesn't seem likely though Cardassians did use forced labor as a weapon against the occupied Bajorans. The Borg have ascended beyond slavery being individual and made it the collective state of their civilization, if they can be called a civilization?

Are the Federation the only major power that lack slavery? I am quite certain Deferi don't have slavery, but they are not a major power as such. Ferengi and Breen? Hmm.

How widespread is slavery in Star Trek?
There was the use of Holograms for use in high hazard areas, that was, in essence, a form of slavery.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
11-16-2011, 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
There were many in the South who also beleived slavery was bad as well, especially on the religous front. Many of the poorer farmers never had slaves, in fact a minority of the South were slave owners. It was the plantation owners who had the government order the Postal Service to eliminate any Abolitionist materials going to the South. Calhoun , "the Mouth of the South" was one of this sort. The historical fact of the "golden rule" prevailed in the South in regards to the slavery issue; "Those with the gold, rule."
I don't think anyone here believes all of those who lived in the south and could technically own slaves thought it was a good thing.
But appearently some people did, otherwise we would never have gotten stuff like Calhoun's
"Slavery a Positive Good" *shudders*.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
11-16-2011, 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
There was the use of Holograms for use in high hazard areas, that was, in essence, a form of slavery.
Don't forget how they tried to treat their android, Data.

Yes, he won that court case that kept him from being taken off the Enterprise at one point, but then they turned around and tried to take his daughter from him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
I don't think anyone here believes all of those who lived in the south and could technically own slaves thought it was a good thing.
But appearently some people did, otherwise we would never have gotten stuff like Calhoun's
"Slavery a Positive Good" *shudders*.
As a former reenactor who served as Army provost at one time for Longstreets Corps, I've heard quite a bit about such things.

Truth is ... the truth is under all that muddy water and very hard to see.

Best to steer this conversation away from the North / South / slavery issue as it will snowball out of control.

It always does. Well, almost always. ... There was that one time the two opposing sides had too much in the way of liquid spirits to finish the argument and ended up singing 19th century tunes (very poorly, I might add). but hey ... At least it was one less fight to break up.

And do we really want Stormshade coming in here and having to stomp out a fire? ... I'd rather drink bloodwine, watch the Orion dancers and point to our defending their way of life as why the Klingons are the good guys.

Besides, ... Simply put, the Federation tries to assimilate other cultures by smoothering them with their set of ideals.

I'm going to quote a historical conversation where such has previously been pointed out ....

Cmdr. Chekov: We all agree that every culture is entitled to inalienable human rights...

Azetbur: "In-alien." If you could only hear yourselves...human rights. The very name is racist. The Federation is nothing more than a "Homo sapiens only" club.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
11-16-2011, 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by P-A-T-H-F-I-N-D-E-R
I'm going to quote a historical conversation where such has previously been pointed out ....

Cmdr. Chekov: We all agree that every culture is entitled to inalienable human rights...

Azetbur: "In-alien." If you could only hear yourselves...human rights. The very name is racist. The Federation is nothing more than a "Homo sapiens only" club.
One uses the words one know. It was probably not meant in a racist way. The good commander Walter Koenig probably just wanted to put forward an ideal everyone could agree upon. Sadly the wording was native to Earth.

I am surprised though it hasn't been changed to "sentient rights." Then again, in TNG I think it has. Doesn't Picard say something along the lines of "the right of any sentient being"? And aren't Data found to be a Sentient being and not a Machine, and as such protected by sentient rights?

I believe Chekov was either using human wording because of Romulan ale, or because he didn't think about his wording. After all, he's not a diplomat. He's tactical. I'm just guessing here, but I bet the Feddies had changed it to "sentient rights" even back then. Even Jonathan Archer said something about Sentient rights at one time. This is of course hypothetical.
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