Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
One last thing. Some of you may feel that you can't attain the levels you used to. Although the system is different, and it's not a one-to-one comparison, for the most part, you actually can get more from this system than you used to. The perception may be that you used to be able to, say purchase 9 points in a deflector skill, and buff a lot of my abilities. Now it looks like you have to max 3 or 4 abilities to get the same bonus. That is not actually the case. Before, when you bought a Deflector skill, it did affect a lot of science powers, but only a little bit (as low as 18). What you can do now is purchase 3 points in, say, Flow Capacitors, Shield Emitters, and Graviton Generators, and get 20 in each of those. Since your abilities take 3x the value from skills, that’s like getting 60 bonus that will affect 3 different types of abilities - far more than any single skill in the old system. And, yes, the skills cost 50% more, but there are half as many to purchase, which again is a net gain. What may be hard to get used to is that you don’t need to put 9 points in every skill you want.
With all due respect CaptainGeko (and a lot is due), the evidence would seem to point to the contrary.

First, please take a look over the feedback from my first posts, Here and Here, as most of the points made in them are still valid.
Second, this post contains the numbers and screen shots to back up my points made in those posts, and here.

Here's an example of an engineer-escort build I'm using on live:
STO Academy Skill Planner URL
It's important to note:
  • I'm able to max out all ship related skills.
  • I'm able to very nearly (1 point away) max out all my appropriate weapons skills.
  • I'm able to max out all my skills related to power levels (all 9 of them).
  • I'm still able to play around with some floating skill points, in this case slotted into in Ship Science.
  • I'm able to also make a very minimal investment into ground skills (Team skills only).

Now I'll grant you that this is a very space focused build, however, the attributes of such a build are simply not possible to duplicate with the current implementation of the skill system.

Here is the closest build I can come up with on Tribble to mimic the Holodeck skill choices:
Image of my skill loadout

As I'm flying an Engineering Escort, the build focus is on weapon damage first, engineering skills second.
  • One of the first differences I noticed is that because weapons took priority, my defensive stats suffered due to a lack of skill points.
  • Another issue I noticed is that it was FAR more difficult to get as many skills to rank 9, in comparison to Holodeck, which in turn meant fewer skills I could train my BOff's in.
  • I noticed that my weapon damage stayed the same.
  • Some heals became more powerful (Engineering Team and Miracle worker), while some became less powerful (Hazard Emitters and Aux to Structural Integrity).
  • Attack Pattern Omega's damage bonus took a big dive, but the defensive stats increased. It almost seems as if the Damage bonus is not affected by skill ?
  • Crit Chance and Crit Severity took a painful hit on Tribble.
  • Despite maxing out Starship Impulse Thrusters (the turn rate skill), my turn rate went down. Not too bad on an escort, but *TERRIBLE* for cruisers.
  • From an engineer's perspective, all my class abilities on live get a boost from various engineering skills. On Tribble, several engineering skills require ship science skills to boost them. This is weird.
  • I can only Max out TWO (2!) skills at Tier 5 ! This is an abominable difference from live, and absolutely terrible from a BOff skill training point of view.
  • One of the two biggest nerfs this system has caused is that all the ship bonuses that were included in one piloting skill per level have been split up. We have to spend more just trying to get our ships to perform at an equal level to what they do on live. The other nerf of course is the well documented console nerf.


In the end, how does this compare to Live ? Here are some side by side screen shots of ship stats, skills, and weapons, etc. Same captain, crew, power levels and equipment. Keep in mind, I'm trying to give a “Big Picture” of the differences between live and Tribble. I'm not saying “OMG, this ONE ability has been nerfed/buffed!” This is the differences I've seen from Live to Tribble, due to how I have to spec differently.

Here are links to pictures of Engineering skills requiring Science skills to improve them:
Nadion Inversion
Rotate Shield Frequency

In addition, there is a painful difference in the skills I can train on Holodeck versus Tribble:
Picture of Trainable skills on Holodeck and Tribble.

With this evidence, how is it possible to claim that the Tribble skill system is mostly equal if not better than Holodeck ?

At best, the build on Tribble has slightly better heals (only in some cases) and Equal or worse performance in all other circumstances.

All this being said, I do appreciate the effort you're putting in to revamping the skill system. Keep at it ! I haven't done the Math yet, but I suspect if you scaled back the skill point cost to be equal to that of live, most of the issues I've raised of imbalances between the two systems will go away. I'll post once I can test out that hypothesis.

P.S. if someone can come up with a spec that better approximates what I can do on live, I'm totally open to revising this post where appropriate. At almost $10 a respec, I'm limited as to how much I can do, lol.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 252
11-09-2011, 11:08 AM
It seems you ran into the exact same problem I did Necrion. The "math" saying that our builds shouldn't change is nothing but a load of tripe. You can only get close by sacrificing all your ground skills. I truely hope they will be putting some more work into revamping this system and that "The math says its perfect" post isn't just the retarded end to the discussion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 253
11-09-2011, 04:21 PM
I aplogize if this has already been brought up. I haven't had time to read the forums much, or even play the game much. Building my new ubber PC has been taking all my free time. Nevertheless, I saw this blog post and was excited to see the changes, and I like what I see.

HOWEVER, the most fundamental issue with the skills in my opinion is the need to split the skill tree for space and ground with separate points to be spent on each skill tree. Since ground sucked originally, most players invested very little or no points at all in ground skills. Yet that's 50% of the game! PLEASE split the skill tree and reward skill points for each type for every mission that currently gives you skill points.

BTW I'm not saying to reward LESS points, I'm saying make two types, and double the amount you receive. Since the two types of gameplay never interact, this won't break anything, just make the game better.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Here are some other reasons why skill costs are too expensive.

Ship Weapon Skills
  • Having weapon skills at Tiers 1, 2 and 5 is as bad as forcing everyone to spec into Antiprotons and Tricobalt weapons.
  • On top of that, the skill investment is even steeper than on live. On live, to max out those weapon skills, you'd have to spend 18,000 skill points.
    • Starship Attack Vectors (900)
    • Starship Energy Weapon Training (900)
    • Starship Projectile weapon Training (900)
    • Starship Beam or Cannon Weapons (1800)
    • Starship Torpedo or Mine Weapons (1800)
    • Starship Battle Strategy (2700)
    • Starship Antiproton Weapons (4500)
    • Starship Tricobolt Weapons (4500)
  • While on Tribble, you have to spend 20,250
    • Starship Weapons Training (1350)
    • Starship Energy Weapons (2700)
    • Starship Projectile Weapons (2700)
    • Starship Targeting Systems (4050)
    • Starship Energy Weapon Specialization (6750)
    • Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization (6750)
  • Now, most people don't spec into both Tricobolt Weapons and Antiproton Weapons. It's simply not effective. An escort captain may spec into one of these, say, Antiproton Weapons, and then go for Quantum Torpedoes. Already, a significantly reduced investment. Some captains will specialize in Disrupters and Photons, or Phasers and Quantums. Their MAXIMUM spec cost would be 14,400 skill points.
    • That's 5,850 skill points less than the Tribble cost.
  • Ideally, the cost to max out weapon skills should be somewhere between the maximum you spend on live, and the minimum. That would be about 16,200.

Starship Skills
Starship piloting skills suffer in a similar manner.
  • On live, you spend 18,000 points to max out your starship piloting skills.
    • Starship Command (900)
    • Tier 2 Ship skill (1800)
    • Starship Combat Maneuvers (1800)
    • Tier 3 Ship skill (2700)
    • Starship Battle Strategy (2700)
    • Tier 4 Ship skill (3600)
    • Tier 5 ship skill (4500)
  • On Tribble, you spend 25,650 skill points in an attempt to equal your performance on live.
    • Structural Integrity (2700)
    • Starship Shield Systems (2700)
    • Starship Maneuvers (4050)
    • Starship Impulse Thrusters (4050)
    • Starship Hull plating (5400)
    • Starship Armor Reinforcements (6750)
      • Sadly, some performance still suffers, such as turn rate.
  • That's 7,650 skill points more you have to spend on the new system.

Attack Patterns
Interestingly, Attack patters actually make sense, sort of:
  • On live, Attack patterns are boosted by 3 skills, for a total of 5,400 skill points.
    • Starship Attack Vectors (900)
    • Starship Combat Maneuvers (1800)
    • Starship Battle Strategy (2700)
  • On Tribble, near as I can tell, the bonus seems to be wrapped up into one skill, Starship Attack Patterns, for a total cost of 5,400.
This being said, it is still quite limiting, as you have to spend all your points on a single Tier, instead of spreading them out over 3 Tiers.


So, in conclusion, from Starship Piloting skills and Weapon skills alone, a player is already at a 9,900 to a 13,500 skill point deficit compared to live. That's really quite a painful loss.
When you add to that fact that all the other skills are more expensive than their live counterparts, it's even worse.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 255
11-19-2011, 05:50 AM
It's been bugging me a while since the other day while I was thiking about this at work..


The way the new skills are set up makes versatility more expensive.

With the proposed changes to the skill pricing going to 18, 18, 18 for the first 3 tanks in a skill it's easier to point this out...


18 points in the old system to all skills... 900 points in the respective field.
Which would be 1 rank in all the respective skills in the new system...

Which means even having ranks in the T5 skills, oh 2 ranks in those and it's already more expensive...



Not to mention that removing the 'all skills' aspect of the T1 and 'several skills' aspect of the T2 skills really screws with the skill traits.

Instead of applying to all skills of the respective department they only apply to 1. And the Joined Trill racial even lost it's bonus to warp core training.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 256 New Skill Tree
11-22-2011, 01:24 AM
I hope we become 5 Respec Tokens.
It will take time to learn about the new Skills and perfectionists like me need to skill perfectly.
If we level our character so we get 5 Tokens, why not here.
... and i have tested the new Skills on tribble. I would need more than 2000 points to become the current Skill
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