Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
12-13-2011, 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
ANd STO made the mistake of not giving carirers the role of support with an assortment of automated drones ranging from science to engineering to tactical roles but instead went for "um yeah.. why not have a ship that launches freaking star ships...."
Agreed, I'd rather see an assortment of support craft being launched from a carrier. Plus I also agree it is absurd that some carriers can launch ships half their size...

-Quiiliitiila
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
12-13-2011, 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
Although they werent "dogfighters", many "night fighters" are close to those specs':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_217

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_88

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ki-45

However, none of them are equipped with warp drive, energy weapons, photon torpedoes or can operate in space, and most did spend most of thier time bombing, nor would I want it to fly halfway around the world to carry its mission out.

And it still doesnt go towards my suggestion that having a larger ship to carry fighters along with task force makes more sense for having a more combat effective crew.
Thanks for trying, but:

-None of them is modern enough to qualify for the discussion.

-They are all over 60 years old, meaning they are too primitive to have features like the SU-34.

-You also said many fighters "do not have" such amneties, indiacting you meant fighters actually in use (otherwise it would have been fighters "never had" such amneites).

And they are also still not big enough (qualifying the large hull criterion) since length and wingspan are not the only thing relevant for size (as in volume) as I certainly hope you are aware of when you look at the comparison between the Peregrine and the the 737 which also has the same length and wingspan but nearly the same volume.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
12-13-2011, 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
I dont think that many people will disagree that those "fighter" roles are viable, with the exception of craft that are designed to shoot down other small craft so the larger craft won't be harassed by them.
There is however a minor problem with this in Star Trek:

Most SciFi settings show us ships with several kinds of weaponry, including large anti-ship guns and small anti-fighter guns.
The former unable to hit small craft the latter unable to damage larger units, similar to the main and secondary batteries in WW1&2 which this was true for weapons against fighters and torpedo boats.
Hence the need for escorts.
In Star Trek, this end up using their main batteries against small craft due to their high precision.
That's like using a 16 barrage against a torpedo boat and hitting, you can probably not even cofinrm there ever was a torpedo boat where the shell hit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
12-14-2011, 05:47 AM
OK GUYS!

Look, we all know and agree that fighters make no sense in the Star Trek world.

But look, there are fighters in it, both as canon in the shows and here in the game. There is no sense in arguing about whether or not they are useful or should be in the game at all.

The original post was regarding a Federation carrier and whether or not we will get one... Not if we thought fighters made sense in the STO universe.

mister_dee, claydermunch and wamhammer; you all make excellent points about the usefulness/not so usefulness of fighters. However, there is no sense in continuing the argument...

The facts are:
-Fighters are in the game and canon.
-Klingons have carriers that launch fighters.
-The Federation does not.

Now, the original poster wanted to know if there will be or should be a Federation carrier. So instead of blathering on about modern day fighters and the size of their amenities, lets discuss the pro/cons of a supposed Federation carrier.

-Quiiliitiila
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
12-14-2011, 06:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
Probably one of the reasons he noted that is because not only is it different from the other nacelle, but probably a fair chunk of service time as well. As far as the fighter goes, do you imagine a fighter really having the room to realisticall accomodate a crewman in comfort for a while? I sure don't, not if its a primary combat role fighter.
Look at the size comparison as well. We're not talking about a F22. We're talking about a 737 in size. So yes, I am pretty sure that can be comfortable. A single person will have more personal space than you can get in a typical Defiant quarter. Or as a 21st Aircraft Carrier crewman in his today's quarter. (Let's better not talk about submarines...)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
12-14-2011, 06:29 AM
The pros are: none.


The Cons are:
- You're adding another monument to stupidity.
- Instead of revamping the vo'quv and kar'fi towards drone carrying ship (see, no-one would complain about drones because its actually not a moronic idea.) adding a fed carrier just encourages the continuation of this BS.
- The klinkers need their Shoe. The Feds got their Shoe's. MVAM, Dreads, Cloaking Escorts, tanking escorts, pointless escorts, weird science, funny science, imba science. Well seated in the eyebrow raiser department.
The klinkers shoe is basically carriers and bop, and bops they are bound to lose once romulans turn up (those guys will probably get battlelcoaking cruisers.too).. You can't just give away their special shoe.
- Basic gameplay question:
So, what deployables should the fed carrier get? The same as the klinkers? Including all the recent pay2use stuff? You want a carbon copy? Do you guys have any idea beyond "launches fighter, more carriers and defiants"?
What role is this ship to fill? The spam role? Wee and here i thought we got that front covered exceedingly well already.
- further put into "why, how, and WHY?!" territory by the fact that every federation ship apparently has a large shuttlebay anyway which raises the question why there should be a dedicated carrier ship instead of say consoles that give every ship the ability to launch something.
- Incidentally: why isn't the fed using holo drones/fighter? I mean they saw it fit to be able to holo-summon freaking battleships... one would think a wing of fighters would be more promising.... since they are smaller and wont immediately be lolstomped off the battlefield again...

- Ever heard of Faction pride? Learn to use what the Federation has, and stop wimpering over how the grass is greener on the other side.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
12-14-2011, 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Thanks for trying, but:

-None of them is modern enough to qualify for the discussion.

-They are all over 60 years old, meaning they are too primitive to have features like the SU-34.
Dude, youre trying to compare 2,000's craft to 2409 craft and you say that 60 year old craft are too old to compare to the SU-34??

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
-You also said many fighters "do not have" such amneties, indiacting you meant fighters actually in use (otherwise it would have been fighters "never had" such amneites).
Or you could take it that "many fighters (over the time of history) do not have" such ammeneites, I'm sorry that I wasn't as intracate for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
And they are also still not big enough (qualifying the large hull criterion) since length and wingspan are not the only thing relevant for size (as in volume) as I certainly hope you are aware of when you look at the comparison between the Peregrine and the the 737 which also has the same length and wingspan but nearly the same volume.
And I "certainly hope that you are aware" that a Sopwith Camel nor a Jenny could be dimensionally comparable to an F-15 or F-22, whats your point??? They all have served a role as fighters in thier times.Maybe we should only use Perigines in PvP to deliver Boarding parties (well fed and in luxury) instead???
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
12-14-2011, 07:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Look at the size comparison as well. We're not talking about a F22. We're talking about a 737 in size. So yes, I am pretty sure that can be comfortable. A single person will have more personal space than you can get in a typical Defiant quarter. Or as a 21st Aircraft Carrier crewman in his today's quarter. (Let's better not talk about submarines...)
Craft like that have a term of design in Star Fleet Battles, they are called pseudo-fighters, they are too big to be considered fighters, but too small to be a small combat vessel, such as a Frigate. Pseudo-fighters would be able to have some degree of comfort for thier crew, while a fighter wouldn't.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
12-14-2011, 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
The pros are: none.


The Cons are:
- You're adding another monument to stupidity.
- Instead of revamping the vo'quv and kar'fi towards drone carrying ship (see, no-one would complain about drones because its actually not a moronic idea.) adding a fed carrier just encourages the continuation of this BS.
- The klinkers need their Shoe. The Feds got their Shoe's. MVAM, Dreads, Cloaking Escorts, tanking escorts, pointless escorts, weird science, funny science, imba science. Well seated in the eyebrow raiser department.
The klinkers shoe is basically carriers and bop, and bops they are bound to lose once romulans turn up (those guys will probably get battlelcoaking cruisers.too).. You can't just give away their special shoe.
- Basic gameplay question:
So, what deployables should the fed carrier get? The same as the klinkers? Including all the recent pay2use stuff? You want a carbon copy? Do you guys have any idea beyond "launches fighter, more carriers and defiants"?
What role is this ship to fill? The spam role? Wee and here i thought we got that front covered exceedingly well already.
- further put into "why, how, and WHY?!" territory by the fact that every federation ship apparently has a large shuttlebay anyway which raises the question why there should be a dedicated carrier ship instead of say consoles that give every ship the ability to launch something.
- Incidentally: why isn't the fed using holo drones/fighter? I mean they saw it fit to be able to holo-summon freaking battleships... one would think a wing of fighters would be more promising.... since they are smaller and wont immediately be lolstomped off the battlefield again...

- Ever heard of Faction pride? Learn to use what the Federation has, and stop wimpering over how the grass is greener on the other side.
OMG, The brilliance of your post should be written in the sky above ESD fro all to see.
No sarcasm, I find your proposals much more acceptable than the feddie see- feddie want viewpoint of others.

/Salute.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
12-14-2011, 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
The pros are: none.


The Cons are:
- You're adding another monument to stupidity.
- Instead of revamping the vo'quv and kar'fi towards drone carrying ship (see, no-one would complain about drones because its actually not a moronic idea.) adding a fed carrier just encourages the continuation of this BS.
If you have been reading what I have stated, I have never said that the Fed's should get an in-game carrier, I have just been saying that Fed' carriers make sense upon the concept that they would go along and behind a task force and launch the fighters in support of the task force behind the combat zone. Fed' carriers by design, wouldn't be slugging it out on the front lines, if they are , the battles really desperate.
I allso said that carriers following the force to deploy fighters before combat would make more sense and be much better for pilots than having them stuck in a smaller craft all the way from starbase to the combat theatre.


Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
- The klinkers need their Shoe. The Feds got their Shoe's. MVAM, Dreads, Cloaking Escorts, tanking escorts, pointless escorts, weird science, funny science, imba science. Well seated in the eyebrow raiser department.
The klinkers shoe is basically carriers and bop, and bops they are bound to lose once romulans turn up (those guys will probably get battlelcoaking cruisers.too).. You can't just give away their special shoe.
I have never said that the Klink's shouldnt get carriers.

What "pointless" escort are you referring to??

What weird/funny science are you talking about?

Also, you forgot that Klingons have another shoe, decent cruisers that carry dual/heavy cannons


Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
-- Basic gameplay question:
So, what deployables should the fed carrier get?The same as the klinkers? Including all the recent pay2use stuff? You want a carbon copy? Do you guys have any idea beyond "launches fighter, more carriers and defiants"?
I'm not for Fed's getting carriers, a matter of fact, I think that between the whole carrier concept and mines, theres way too much clutter in space combat. I think they should just be able to launch friggates


Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
- What role is this ship to fill? The spam role? Wee and here i thought we got that front covered exceedingly well already.
- further put into "why, how, and WHY?!" territory by the fact that every federation ship apparently has a large shuttlebay anyway which raises the question why there should be a dedicated carrier ship instead of say consoles that give every ship the ability to launch something.
- Incidentally: why isn't the fed using holo drones/fighter? I mean they saw it fit to be able to holo-summon freaking battleships... one would think a wing of fighters would be more promising.... since they are smaller and wont immediately be lolstomped off the battlefield again...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, holo fighters...........nope, still adds to the clutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
- - Ever heard of Faction pride? Learn to use what the Federation has, and stop wimpering over how the grass is greener on the other side.
I have and I do. I didn't know that Klingons had grass??? Next thing you'll tel me is they bathe at least once a day now......
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