Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
12-19-2011, 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by CivilPhil
If you enjoyed even a part of the time you spent playing this game then it was not a waste Davey. It may not have been a good return on your investment (in your opinion), but that does not inherently make it a waste.

Mirror-master makes an excellent point - At the launch of S5, it seemed that a large portion of the player base had no idea what was going on. Plus, many of them did not care.

This is where, I think, Cryptic gets the idea of the vocal minority. Let's say they have 100,000 accounts (not subs, accounts). If they register 100 unique complaints about topic X (not just the same 5 people over and over) in the forums, that is 0.001%. Granted, more than 100 are probably upset about topic X and don't bother with the forums, but when the VAST majority doesn't appear to care, why would Cryptic bother making anything but minor tweaks?

While Katic makes some very good points regarding PR, tactics, and choice, the underlying issue that this (and many other arguments against F2P and related changes) is predicated on is: The previous financial model was sustainable.

Based on what I've read about Cryptic, Atari, PW, and all those shenannigins . . . . I am not convinced that it was.

I also think the failure of the nameless hordes of MMO's before STO is testament to the fact that subscription based MMO's are difficult to make and keep sustainable.

Corollary - the success of several F2P MMO's suggests that a F2P model is sustainable.

As a player who wants STO to continue for many years to come (decades if possible), I understand and accept that changes may have not only been needed, but required to ensure its survival. I prefer survival in nearly any form to wholesale loss.

I prefer to live in the world of the real and the possible, rather than the ideal and dream. Is STO my ideal Star Trek game? No. Is it one that I still enjoy playing with my friends? Yes.

Do I care if they are trying to manipulate players using double speak? Since I recognize it as such . . . no, not really. I'm aware of the tricks marketers/PR use to get people to think X and do Y and I don't care. If I were to get mad about what Cryptic is doing then I should also get mad at my local grocery store for putting the Milk in the back. It's the same #$$%ing thing, tricking us into buying more by making us pass by all the other isles and see the "specials" and "deals" as we walk to back for the milk.

I ain't gonna go yell at my local grocer over that. :p

Time will tell if Cryptic made the right choice in moving to a F2P with the elements it currently has (DL grind, c-store, crafting issues, etc). I for one, will keep playing (if not paying [lifetimer] until I not longer find it fun.

Now then - let me be your lightning rod of Hate
Wait just a moment, while I search for my Cattle Prod... (I think my GF has it somewhere in the bedroom)

I'm here for the long-haul also...

I just want it TO BE a Long Haul.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
12-19-2011, 11:53 PM
Whether or not any of the options presented is "bad" is less a set-in-stone definition and more how the individual views is. For example, some people may not view "pay" as a bad choice; they feel if they have the money, then by golly, using it to get what they want is right and just.

Painting every option as bad isn't a very smart move when "bad" at is very heart is subject to the views of others. It's only a dilemma if an individual views all options as bad. You cannot say for certain that is the case, and any claim to the contrary just makes you look foolish.

Your argument is quite well written, but fails on a very basic level.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
12-20-2011, 02:36 AM
What I'm seeing from most of this is the idea that because "bad" is subjective, my argument fails.

I'll concede that bad is subjective, but I do not concede that it cripples my argument.

Torture, is almost universally considered to be a bad thing, yet there are those (masochists) who would enjoy being tortured. That it can be enjoyed, that is, can be a "good" thing for a few does not make torture itself a good thing, or even an "ok" thing, especially not when if it were to be foisted upon those who don't enjoy it.

I will admit there are a select few for whom grinding the same content is an enjoyable activity, but I would reserve the right to say that it's fair to say the majority does not.

I will admit there are a select few for whom forking over real-world currency is an acceptable way to gain advantage and enjoyment in the game, but I would reserve the right to say that it's fair to say the majority does not share that feeling.

I will admit there are a select few for whom not playing game is a perfectly acceptable option, but I would reserve the right to say that it's fair to say the majority does not find that a desirable option.

A few well-defined exceptions do not cripple an argument.

One of the real questions is, is there anybody out there for whom all three exceptions apply?

The reason I ask is, if I make a poisonous cocktail of arsenic, cyanide, and ricin, and I have three Lab Mice and (for the sake of argumentation) each one has been made immune to one of the poisons, can it be said, because of the specific mice, that the cocktail is safe for mice?

We are not given each option in a vacuum, we must choose one of the three, and simply because some of us may be content with one or even two of the options, does not make all the options good ones.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
12-20-2011, 04:48 AM
Interesting OP, Katic. I suppose you are right, because I feel stuck in a dilemma. I don#t want to leave, I am a lifer. I don't want to grind. Nor do I want to buy my equipment via the C-Store/Dilithium exchange.
This is not a choice, it's a dilemma.

Of course, I don't know if Cryptic had a sustainable business the way it was before. Quite possibly not, and this is the only way they can earn their money. They use their double speak to make it more attractive to me, but it's not quite convincing. But it can be enough for others, and that may be good enough for them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
12-20-2011, 05:04 AM
Let me give you an example of who I think the majority actually is , and what they think of the 3 "bad choices" you say they are forced into, based on the people in my fleet.

The social player - plays the game for 2 reasons: 1. Likes star trek 2. has friends who like star trek and play the game. This is the sort of player who plays regularly but not daily, and only for extended periods when they schedule time with friends. For this player, PVP does not matter. They do not care to put in the time or effort to be good enough to play PVP with anyone but their friends. They do no care about having the best loot, beyond having gear of the appropriate level (e.g. Hmmm, I'm a captain now. I should probably replace that MkIV Deflector) Their interest in primarily in story content. They may not have leveled a Klingon to 51 yet. They have a LIFETIME SUB. They either don't or rarely post in the forums.

For this type of player, grind is irrelevant. They don't care about getting that badass Item Set, or if they do want it cause it "looks cool" and can get it "without any work" (e.g. the Breen Set)

For this type of player, pay does not matter. They have a lifetime sub. But even if they didn't, the game is going F2P, so they won't be paying either way. Heck, maybe now they can get other friends who love Star Trek (who don't have as much disposable income) to play with them.

For this type of player , quit isn't even on their map. As long as they enjoy some aspect of the game (story missions, DOFFs, etc) and their friends are still playing, they will keep playing.

If I am correct and this is the sort of person that is similar to the majority of players, I think you see why Cryptic is A. doing what they are doing B. only slightly changing their plans C. ignoring most the "vocal minority" complaints

Frankly, none of the F2P changes impacted that type of player beyond the new free stuff they get. "Oooh, I get the original series enterprise now? Neat!" "Doffs? Cool! An added level of realism!" "Random gifts for Xmas? They didn't do this last year! That's nice of them!"

Katic, your example precludes the possibility of there being mice outside of your lab that are immune to all three, and that triple immunity may actually be the most common state. There are are MANY players (like the type described above) who do not have to choose ANY of your poison pill options, and the forums would do well to remember that. It tends to be a bit insular around here on topics like this.

Additionally, to generalize from self is to risk making one of the first common mistakes of Human Research.
For example:
Just because the changes to the US mail system impact you negatively and you have a set of "bad" options because of the changes, it does not logically follow that all Americans are negatively impacted or that a majority of Americans are negatively impacted. Of the 300,000,000 of us in the USA it is entirely possible and likely that less than 1% will be impacted by the changes in any way shape or form and have to make your forced choice.

Can anyone blame Cryptic for not acceding to every demand of the 1%? At what percentage should they undo the F2P changes? 10%? 25%? Is the portion of the player base trapped in the forced choice more than 25%? Really?

To answer your rhetorical question Katic, Yes I think there are people for whom all three exceptions apply (i.e. don't have to answer your forced choice). I play STO with some of them weekly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16 hmmm quite the boggle
12-20-2011, 05:51 AM
I would imagine that the OP rather over thought the process here as what they are really elluding to is marketing rather than the base intent of a developer or game programmer.

Simplicity would dictate that said assertions are grouping Cryptic in with the bunch as PWE takes the helm of ultimate decision veto in respect to game mechanics and how they are implemented upon the player base as a whole.

This is a little backwards if I may deconstruct your post for a brief moment.

1) We as people naturally have a need for someone to tell us what to do. This has been a cornerstone of the capitolist agenda for many decades as it dictates how we shop, what we like, and who we listen to. People in the USA anyway are primarily sheep and they follow the flock...even if they are being led off of a cliff...complacency is the root of this as we are bombarded constantly with the system telling us what to eat, where to go, what to get the idea.

2) The ultimate goal of any business is to make money and retain must understand the simplicity in this. It's not how to entertain the mides of the select few that would raise a ruckus, it's how to entertain the majority whom will continue playing for whatever reason. When you consider that technology has become the fore front of the human sleeping condition only then can you understand that if this game doesn't keep you, another will due to our inherent need to fill that void that the idiot box creates when we are not planted in front of one. The company that is PWE will continue on down the road with or without us for the reasons of profit and capitol management. The majority would have to be pretty peev'd to cause any real change to the liking of the few. Most business operates like this.....the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

3) As far as freedom is concerned I hardly believe that usuing the game as a example is going to drive your point as we are constantly told we have freedom of choice...when in reality the majority of the world population (to include the USA) have never known true freedom. I doubt even the OP has actaully realized what true freedom really is. So splitting hairs for the games sake doesn't make sense. In reality you have no choice, the same companies that drive your patronage are the same ones you are enslaved to. But for the sake of the OP's example I will put it this way. If you do a thing that you do not enjoy, why continue to do it? Is it the fantasy that this is only temporary and it could get better? Again complacency at its best.

We all have our reasons for continuing down the STO gravy train of high hopes and shattered expectations. You only need realize that this is a business...and sometimes good intentions don't always make the right path of action. PWE needs to learn this on their own...and like a parent scolding a child, there is nothing we can say to change PWE's mind on what things should just have to let them figure it out as they go along and discover what works, and what flops.

Me? I continue to play cause it angers my wife so, a little head game in my own right. That and it's the only game with an IP that I cannot resist and have always been a fan of.

You do have a choice...a few of them actually....

-Keep playing through the mess and see what comes might be surprised at where PWE takes it and like it.

-Stop playing and play something else that suits your fancy.....warning the grass is not always greener on the other side.

-Rant and throw a tantrum at the current state of affairs and risk being banned or labeled a negative nancy where as no one from the player base or the game devs will really care what you think.

So see? you do have a choice, just don't let pride overshoot principal. I would hate to think all those at Cryptic have worked so hard to produce something they poured their hearts into just to be bashed from all sides over a decision that wasn't theirs to make in the first place.

As far as psychology in business is concerned......thats mostly the marketing aspect as they go to school just to get a degree and learn how to think up stupid poop for the sleeping masses to buy into. If you don't believe me....goggle forever lazy and feel free to buy one......

Its a game guys....thats it or hate it.....if you don't like it....leave it.....or wait and see what comes about.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
12-20-2011, 06:33 AM
Cryptic is does have no damn knowledge of marketings. What they are good at is alienating their customer base and grabbing money from them with false statements like that one for the T3 Nebula and Excelsior.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
12-20-2011, 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by castogere View Post
So . . much to . . . respond to . . . . not enough words in english to . . . express . . . . blaugh.

[[passes out]]

J/K, here's few thoughts (but this is entirely off topic from the OP)

You seem to have a very low opinion of humanity (and 'Merica specifically). Plus, based on what historical and/or physical evidence do you use terms like capitalist agenda, human sleeping condition, enslaved . . . or am I just another soulless minion of orthodoxy? These sound like terms I hear entirely calm and reasonable people like Glenn Beck use. :p

True Freedom? Do you mean that a person who has true freedom has the ability to live and act exactly as they want? Sorry, but I think the countless people murdered each year would have something to say about that. (not to mention all the OTHER serious problems with a "truly free" society, but that's this WHOLE other discussion)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
12-20-2011, 06:34 AM
Originally Posted by Hawks View Post
Cryptic is does have no damn knowledge of marketings. What they are good at is alienating their customer base and grabbing money from them with false statements like that one for the T3 Nebula and Excelsior.
What false statement was that, exactly? (can you cite a forum post or news release?)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
12-20-2011, 06:47 AM
I believe that the 8 month long content drought (at that time) effectively forced/railroaded us in to testing the F2P builds on Tribble for them. There was absolutely nothing new in the game we had been paying for. The only new content was testing for F2P people.

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