Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
12-20-2011, 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CivilPhil
So . . much to . . . respond to . . . . not enough words in english to . . . express . . . . blaugh.

[[passes out]]


J/K, here's few thoughts (but this is entirely off topic from the OP)

You seem to have a very low opinion of humanity (and 'Merica specifically). Plus, based on what historical and/or physical evidence do you use terms like capitalist agenda, human sleeping condition, enslaved . . . or am I just another soulless minion of orthodoxy? These sound like terms I hear entirely calm and reasonable people like Glenn Beck use. :p

True Freedom? Do you mean that a person who has true freedom has the ability to live and act exactly as they want? Sorry, but I think the countless people murdered each year would have something to say about that. (not to mention all the OTHER serious problems with a "truly free" society, but that's this WHOLE other discussion)
Not trying to derail the thread here.....but to answer your query.....

Perhaps I do carry little faith in humanity...war will do that to you. Only you must understand I've been a globe trotter since birth and seen all forms of authoritarian rule in all forms and sizes. Jaded? Maybe so....not really low of faith in humanity however as there are good people out there.

And please do not compare me to Glen Beck...he's a paid shill for the mindless to follow. And need I remind you that history repeats itself. When I speak of true freedom, it's not what you think...it is not the presence of anarchy, but the presence of equality all around (not speaking of entitlement or socialist agenda) but rather the true freedom to do what you want as long as it does not hinder another life in anyway.

Also try not to insert emotion in my words as there are none. It is simple and to the point, very matter of fact really. Granted it is based on my perception of such notions as to what I believe to be true....lets face it, truth is a grey area in itself.

Freedom is what we do not have the luxury of, and yes the world as a populas is controled either directly or indirectly by the decisions of others......so no, we are not truly free. To illustrate my point check out the movie Human Resources (youtube has it) everything in there is factual and outlines the monkey bananna syndrom we all live in. We are slaves to money, that is what I meant by that statement.

The OP is correct in one way, the perception of choice versus the pitfall of dilemma and the settling for this because I cannot have that ideal. For that there is a graceful bow.

Hows that?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
12-20-2011, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
Again and again, we're given the same three bad options, grind, pay, or quit, and told it's a free and clear choice, when it's really a dilemma, choosing the lesser of three evils.

Is this the way we want our game run?
Welcome to Life. These three options are exactly what Life gives you. Sorry you think games should give you something better but as the Devs are also affected by the choices Life gives them, those same choices are reflected in games, and not just in MMO's.

You could also make a conscious choice to completely ignore parts of STO to the extent where you ignore all of it and go do something else till something better comes along and you're back doing it.

It's like when I was a kid and I'd look at my plate and complain about having liver in it. The best response I could get from my parents was "Then don't eat it!" I'd never gotten them to say something like "OK, so I'll make you something else instead."

Later in life, I learned that once you're a grown up you can make your own food... in fact, you kinda have to!

Life is about making Free Will and making choices, but Free Will isn't about having your way without any consequences to your choices. Deal With It like the adult you are.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
12-20-2011, 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
The following is based off my own observations and knowledge of marketing and psychology, I have no inside information, nor any privileged information regarding Cryptics PR philosophy.

Within corporate culture, Orwellian “doublespeak” has become a common way of disguising poor service. Unnecessary grinds introduced to encourage micro-transactions are relabeled "opportunities" for Players to avoid those very same micro-transactions.

PR people and the Devs are most likely aware of the western cultural bias towards “self-determination” (IE individualist self-control). They most likely know we’re more likely to yield to their persuasions if we believe we’re personally in control and not being coerced, as when we sense coercion we respond with resentment and resistance. They thus make frequent use of self-determining words and phrases (EX: “opportunity”, “incentive” and “adding challenge”) most likely as tools of resentment management.

The technique is to let you believe you have a free choice. When, in fact, all you have is a dilemma. A “free choice” implies at least one favorable option; a dilemma means each option is unfavorable, such as the "choice" of whether to grind (bad), pay (bad), or stop playing (bad).

The language of the typical MMO PR is saturated with self-determining words, which hide coercion by disguising dilemmas as choices. In such environments, Players may actually come to believe they are performing repetitive, mindless tasks out of personal choice, rather than economic dilemma (grinding to avoid paying), or taking a bad game being better than not playing at all.

The decreasing returns in currency conversion are mitigated by the "gift" of Holiday Tickets, the anger that rightfully comes from exclusive items in Lotto Boxes is deflected by the miniscule chance of getting it through the repetition (grind) of a Holiday Daily. The sheer crass commercialism of the Dilithium Economy and lack of content in favor of C-Store releases is softened by the Dilithium Exchange (which shifts the real-world costs to someone else) and the "opportunity" to do the same missions over and over and over again for weeks. The Nerf of Crafting is softened by the introduction of Unreplicateable Materials, which is essentially the same Nerf, just with the possibility of having the grind shifted to someone else.

All of this, combined with the subset of the playerbase that is wholly taken in with this sort of doublespeak vocally parroting the very doublespeak employed, combines to keep most players consciously unaware of how badly they're being treated.

Resentment management is a subset of “damage limitation”. Damage limitation most likely plays a massive role in Dev-Player relations, not for selling the game to new players, but for deflecting some of the hostility, suspicion and anxiety the existing playerbase feels towards them.

Again and again, we're given the same three bad options, grind, pay, or quit, and told it's a free and clear choice, when it's really a dilemma, choosing the lesser of three evils.

Is this the way we want our game run?
This is A FANTASTIC post, extremely well said!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
12-20-2011, 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyNY View Post
And that doesn't even take into account all the Folks who will hang around and 'Express' their 'Displeasure' to all the new players here in the forums and in-game chat...
I am going to take so much perverse pleasure in airing all the dirty little secrets Cryptic will no doubt try to disappear before the Silvers come in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
Of course what they forget is that these players are, as a result, less invested and more prone to leaving when something becomes inconvenient or less palatable.
This.

From my time in other F2P games (when I was Younger *********, much more recently BSGO and WoT) I have discovered that I have a proclivity for logging in for two weeks or so out of every 4 months to get an occasional fix before the grind puts me off and I spend my time elsewhere.

I think the devs assume that the point where I get bored and leave is the point where Silvers will start shelling out cash.

This may be true for a minority of them, but I'm guessing the majority will leave and jump to the next Free MMO.
The market is fairly well saturated now, so the only players who will stay are Star Trek fans who couldn't afford the sub, and if they couldn't afford the sub chances are they are not the crowd to depend on for mircro-trans.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
12-20-2011, 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
What I'm seeing from most of this is the idea that because "bad" is subjective, my argument fails.

I'll concede that bad is subjective, but I do not concede that it cripples my argument.

Torture, is almost universally considered to be a bad thing, yet there are those (masochists) who would enjoy being tortured. That it can be enjoyed, that is, can be a "good" thing for a few does not make torture itself a good thing, or even an "ok" thing, especially not when if it were to be foisted upon those who don't enjoy it.

I will admit there are a select few for whom grinding the same content is an enjoyable activity, but I would reserve the right to say that it's fair to say the majority does not.

I will admit there are a select few for whom forking over real-world currency is an acceptable way to gain advantage and enjoyment in the game, but I would reserve the right to say that it's fair to say the majority does not share that feeling.

I will admit there are a select few for whom not playing game is a perfectly acceptable option, but I would reserve the right to say that it's fair to say the majority does not find that a desirable option.

A few well-defined exceptions do not cripple an argument.

One of the real questions is, is there anybody out there for whom all three exceptions apply?

The reason I ask is, if I make a poisonous cocktail of arsenic, cyanide, and ricin, and I have three Lab Mice and (for the sake of argumentation) each one has been made immune to one of the poisons, can it be said, because of the specific mice, that the cocktail is safe for mice?

We are not given each option in a vacuum, we must choose one of the three, and simply because some of us may be content with one or even two of the options, does not make all the options good ones.
Your argument is crippled because you are trying to define an objective result to a subjective input... There are probably as many exceptions and variances to your 'excpetions' as there are people playing. Hence your debate over good or bad (and the torture example is in incredibly bad taste) is purely subjective and applies to no one but yourself.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
12-20-2011, 10:44 AM
Unfortunately it is a truth of life.

Another truth is that we only have one inalienable right in life --- the Pursuit of happiness. One can always pursue happiness regardless of one's circumstances in life. You may not find it, but you can always chase after it.

Life can be taken from you as quickly and easily as one's Liberty.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
12-20-2011, 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyNY View Post
Wait just a moment, while I search for my Cattle Prod... (I think my GF has it somewhere in the bedroom)

I'm here for the long-haul also...

I just want it TO BE a Long Haul.
Sub "Klingon pain stick" for "Cattle Prod"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
12-20-2011, 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordOfPit View Post
Welcome to Life. These three options are exactly what Life gives you. Sorry you think games should give you something better but as the Devs are also affected by the choices Life gives them, those same choices are reflected in games, and not just in MMO's.

You could also make a conscious choice to completely ignore parts of STO to the extent where you ignore all of it and go do something else till something better comes along and you're back doing it.

It's like when I was a kid and I'd look at my plate and complain about having liver in it. The best response I could get from my parents was "Then don't eat it!" I'd never gotten them to say something like "OK, so I'll make you something else instead."

Later in life, I learned that once you're a grown up you can make your own food... in fact, you kinda have to!

Life is about making Free Will and making choices, but Free Will isn't about having your way without any consequences to your choices. Deal With It like the adult you are.
LoP, you're absolutely right.

Or, you would be, if games were meant to exactly replicate the series of dilemmas and disappointments real life inevitably throws at someone. But that's not why people play games. people play games for entertainment, for fun, for enjoyment. It is meant to be a respite from the real life situations you describe.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
12-20-2011, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
LoP, you're absolutely right.

Or, you would be, if games were meant to exactly replicate the series of dilemmas and disappointments real life inevitably throws at someone. But that's not why people play games. people play games for entertainment, for fun, for enjoyment. It is meant to be a respite from the real life situations you describe.
Those are some reasons play, what it boils down to however....is detachment from real life for a while. You cannot disagree that by playing any game for some given time that all one is really doing (for whatever the reason) is disconnecting from reality. Enjoyment falls into this category as does entertainment.

Which is ok, everyone needs to unhinge every once and a while....yet when you get down to the root of what a thing is, then and only then do you recognize the triggers that make a thing be.


Good show OP, very thought provoking...I can dig it......
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
12-20-2011, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
LoP, you're absolutely right.

Or, you would be, if games were meant to exactly replicate the series of dilemmas and disappointments real life inevitably throws at someone. But that's not why people play games. people play games for entertainment, for fun, for enjoyment. It is meant to be a respite from the real life situations you describe.
I'd absolutely agree with you, if the situation describe in my signature wasn't what it is. For as long as STO is going to be gear-centric, expect to have those three options to rule your gameplay. I know it and so does Cryptic.

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