Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
01-06-2012, 10:38 AM
My suggestion is to steal a game system from Dark Age of Camelot which is probably the best faction based PvP MMO ever.

In that game you can capture keeps spread about the pvp zone. The faction that captured and controlled the majority of keeps gained access to a special dungeon where they could farm for the best loot in the game. However if access to the dungeon changed ownership the players already in the dungeon didn't get kicked out unless they were killed. This meant that in the dungeon PvP continued as the new dungeon owners tried to expel the previous owners. Now the dungeon was large and factions entered at opposite sides of it so finding and killing the other factions players took a bit of effort and clever skillful players could stay in the dungeon for a long time even though their faction no longer had access.

This system was also great because once a faction captured the dungeon they would all rush in leaving keeps relatively undefended which made it easier for the recently expelled faction to recapture keeps and regain access to the dungeon. So pvp was constant. You'd pvp to take keeps to gain access, you'd pvp to expel players from the dungeon, when you lost control of the entrance you'd pvp to stay in the dungeon, and when you were killed you pvp'd to take or defend the keeps and start all over.

In STO you could do a similiar system. Keeps become starbases, and the dungeon becomes a transwarp hub or a wormhole to a special system where players could do missions to get dilithium and tokens similiar to what you get by doing STFs.

Now starbases dont have to be complicated. They would be NPCs that would defend themselves from rival faction players. They could be captured simply by players doing enough damage to them that they surrender. Once they surrender they would switch faction. They could further be claimed by a guild and upgraded. By spending dilithium your guild could improve shields, base weapons, and add NPC ships to ithe defense of the starbase making it harder for the other faction to recapture. If attacked the starbase would send an alert to all the players in the guild letting them know.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
01-06-2012, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelus
My suggestion is to steal a game system from Dark Age of Camelot which is probably the best faction based PvP MMO ever.

In that game you can capture keeps spread about the pvp zone. The faction that captured and controlled the majority of keeps gained access to a special dungeon where they could farm for the best loot in the game. However if access to the dungeon changed ownership the players already in the dungeon didn't get kicked out unless they were killed. This meant that in the dungeon PvP continued as the new dungeon owners tried to expel the previous owners. Now the dungeon was large and factions entered at opposite sides of it so finding and killing the other factions players took a bit of effort and clever skillful players could stay in the dungeon for a long time even though their faction no longer had access.

This system was also great because once a faction captured the dungeon they would all rush in leaving keeps relatively undefended which made it easier for the recently expelled faction to recapture keeps and regain access to the dungeon. So pvp was constant. You'd pvp to take keeps to gain access, you'd pvp to expel players from the dungeon, when you lost control of the entrance you'd pvp to stay in the dungeon, and when you were killed you pvp'd to take or defend the keeps and start all over.

In STO you could do a similiar system. Keeps become starbases, and the dungeon becomes a transwarp hub or a wormhole to a special system where players could do missions to get dilithium and tokens similiar to what you get by doing STFs.

Now starbases dont have to be complicated. They would be NPCs that would defend themselves from rival faction players. They could be captured simply by players doing enough damage to them that they surrender. Once they surrender they would switch faction. They could further be claimed by a guild and upgraded. By spending dilithium your guild could improve shields, base weapons, and add NPC ships to ithe defense of the starbase making it harder for the other faction to recapture. If attacked the starbase would send an alert to all the players in the guild letting them know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matcap View Post
sorry in advance for my bad english

when I read that post for the first time I laughed because of promises made by the devs and never kept before the game came out, then I got the urge to write how pvp could be improved without changing drastically its structure.
i play STO from open beta, but last year my playing time was reduced greatly, and I can say with certainty that i still play because I did the lifetime from the release date and because it is Star Trek!

I'd like to see the implementation of fleet bases, possibly customizable, that have an active role in the life of the guild and make the users feels like a member of that fleet unlike it is now. (Need fleet points)
this base of the fleet should be so fortified that no one would dream of attacking making it a safe place for members.

mechanics of pvp
the background of star trek, as we all know, is very huge, and for example the feature of the neutral zone here in STO could be the core of pvp establishing battles to conquer the territory between factions and between fleets.
devs should add new sectors to this, the battles between factions could be on the scale of 20vs20 30vs30 50vs50 depending on the number of users available in which everyones faces in an open field for the conquest of entire sector of space, once a faction has established the supremacy of a given sector can extract dilithium ore from the mine within it, it need only a small amount of dilithium to promote this new concept of pvp.
once the factions would have faced thus establishing the distribution of the territories would start the fight fleet vs fleet of the same faction to ensure the dominance of resources. This battle between fleets could be made with 5vs5 meetings to ensure that even small fleets can participate.
After a fleet prevailed against another takes possession of an outpost and a dilithium mine and can begin to extract material until another fleet does not decide to try to conquer this outpost already occupied. Thus began a new kind of battle against the outpost.

in summary, there would be 3 new stadiums of conquest:

1- War between factions consisting of a large number of users on the same map that fight for a sector, this kind of war could be held once or twice for month to distribute the space among the factions.

2- Internal fight between fleets consisting in 5vs5 arenas such as existing. winner is awarded with a dilithium mine including a small outpost of defense.

3- Fight for the recapture of already assigned outpost consisting of a new type of battle: offensive team, with only ships against defense team made up of ships and defensive turrets from the outpost. if the offensive team win the first space step, the 2 teams could fight in a ground outpost map to determine who will be the owner.

instead of using the dilithium as a resource, could be inserted as a new resource, maybe trilithium, with which we could buy specific pvp gear

this structure is to exploit the completely instanced features of STO. devs should design new maps but I think the bottom is something feasible for the current devs, the big issue for them would be to be able to balance the factions skills and adjust broken skills instead of continue to put absurd console into the game ruining the gameplay...

cryptic + pwe make a lot of money with the space bug gambling and they will continue with the ftp, now they must and they can focus their attention to add more contents and give us a better game
a mix of this 2 point of view could be great...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
01-06-2012, 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Trainor
How about group respawn?
When you die, you're a spectator until the last of your allies is killed, then the whole group respawns together.
For the current scale/maps we have now it'd be a good approach for a tourney. But, if you're trying to defend a starbase and after you kill the last of them, then they could as a group start right back where they'd left off? Or worse they don't kill the last guy so the rest of the team is stuck waiting to respawn?

Anyway it's kind of why I suggested the ship/boff injuries and repair times on them. It's an RP type reason to keep people from zerging non stop, and w/F2P there'd be plenty of zerging too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24 please do something.
01-06-2012, 12:19 PM
Have the war already....

Add two new ques to pvp.... 1. Join Attack fleet. 2. Join defense fleet. When these ques fill up the game begins.

The games take place around established locales in game, I.e. K7, DS9 etc. The ques for these instances stay open for around an hour(?) and new players are inserted after a ship from their side has been destroyed, your ship can only be destroyed once before you are kicked out of the instance. Kicking you from the instance would lend its self to more crebral game play ( since you can only die once you may be more careful).

Attacking players have to deal with automated defenses to make it a little more difficult. Defending players have to escort a ship to a warp out point so that they cant just guard base. Make the instance capable of supporting 30 ships total so it feels like a fleet battle, if fewer feds/klinks are available then just ensure the two sides remain as equally populated as possible. If interest in queing up is not equitable than the side who can't reload players will be losing and will ultimately lose. An instance without interest will close down after 2 minutes of no new meat. Encourage gameplay by notifying all ships around ds9 or k7 to defend base, similar to the borg invasion when you are in a particular sector of space.

Make this a fed vs kdf event only. You put different factions in the game for a reason.......Make rewards good enough to encourage interest.....

In closing I would just like to say that I have been here since the official launch date, bought a lifetime in late dec 2012. I dont think cryptic is perfect but if they can add depth to this game via pvp then I think this game will be a winner. I also think the updates we have gotten post atari have been smooth, with great additions (doff system) and has better polish and foundations than this game had after the hasty launch.

Please Cryptic, for your sake, now that the foundation of the game has been solidified make some freaking content, pvp content in particular.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
01-06-2012, 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Open PvP Zone Sector Block
An entire sector block seated between Klingon, Romulan and Federation space.

The Open PvP Sector Block has an exploration cluster attached to it that allows certain PvE related activities to contribute to the overall territory control game. Unique for that cluster is that all factions can visit it, and that it is possible to engage enemies. (More below)

The Sector Block is distributed by a grid. Each section of the grid has a unique PvP objective attached to it, a "point of interest".

Sector Space Engagements
This is an option in Open PvP Sector Blocks and Open PvP Exploration Clusters.

Players can choose to attack another player in sector space. The players are transferred to a PvP enabled map, and a marker indicating an ongoing battle is placed on the sector block. Other players can choose to join.

The map is either determined randomly or depends on the sector. The maps might have unique "unfair" features - like a map where cloaking devices do not work, a map full of (micro)nebulas where ships can hide in.

A player has the option to reject a battle while still in Sector Space, or to yield and give up. In addition, the map scenario is concluded after a certain number of deaths, or an alternative "win" conditon - like hiding succesfully for at least 5 minutes in a nebula, or collecting certain materials that help the players escape.

Whether your opponent gives up voluntarily or fails the objective, the winning side earns bonus points towards the territorial control game.

Once a faction has a certain amount of minimum points in an area, it can mount an attack on the PvP objective.

Such engagements do not only have to be Space PvP objectives. One side can choose to force a ground battle, representing both sides fighting for a particular object or person of interest. (The side that makes the decision is the one that is currently controlling the grid element, or the attacker, if neither party has control.)

Territory Control Mechanics
The goal of the territory control game is to capture the different PvP objectives and move your way towards the enemy base.

Earning and Losing Control Points

PvE Exploration Missions
Completing Exploration Missions earns you items that represent effectively control points, or change how many control points you can earn.
  • Assault Points: Some missions earn you items that grant you assault points. Assault points can be spent on sectors controlled by the enemy and lowers their control points, and provides a small buff to control points earned when you win Open PvP Engagements. Assault points are represented by trade items representing weapons and engine technology or deliveries, military aid agreements, or ships.
  • Defense Points: Some missions earn you items that grant you defense points. Defense points can be spent on sectors controlled by yourself and give you a small bonus to your control points. It provides a small debuff to control points earned by your enemy when they win Open PvP egangements. Defense Points are represented by shields and hull technology or deliviers, peace agreements or research aid.
Losing a battle in a PvE Exploration Zone causes you to earn a specific debuff that lasts for a certain time or until you won again. While the debuff lasts, you cannot use Assault or Defense Points.

Sector Space Engagements
If you win a sector space engagement, your faction gains control points in that grid section.

Conquering or Raidinga PvP Objective
If you succesfully raid or conquer a PvP objective, you earn control points for all grid sections you control, and the enemy loses control points for all grid sections you control.

Conquering and Raiding
Each Sector Grid has a major location each party is fighting for. We assume that the goal is never to destroy the location, as it is too valuable.

To be able to mount any attack at all, your faction control points need to exceed a certain minimum threshold.
Raiding
You can raid if you have reached only the minimum threshold, but have less than the attacker. Raiding leads to a different mission then conquering an area. The goal of a raid is typically damaging the station, sabotaging it, stealing supplies, or halting supply deliveries.

Optionally, a raid might merely be a PvE mission, with all the rules of an STF, e.g. requiring a 5 man team - no more, no less, or a Fleet Action, or it is afully fledged PvP scenario.

A possible restriction for a Raid might be that it's always a small team and not quite "Open", and there might be more PvE elements.

If you succesfully raid an enemy controlled objective, your enemy loses control points in that grid section and all adjoining ones, opening his position for further attacks.

Conquering
If you have reached the minimum threshold and your control points exceed those of your opponents, you can launch a conquest. There might need to be a certain window on which a conquest is possible to allow players in the area to coordinate an assault.
Conquest usually is composed of multiple phases, and should always contain space and ground elements.

Attacking the enemy faction's HQ
Attacking the enemy head quarter is particular challenging task. Raids and Conquest missions will always include NPC enemies to make up missing player ranks to achieve a high difficulty level. A succesful conquest gives access to special missions to both sides (including stuff like adding a PvP enabled version of ESD or Q'onos). After the "conquest", you might not really "own" the new station, but you might get access to unique vendors, while your enemy loses all access to its HQ's perks.

Owning and Maintaining a a grid section

Perks of owning a grid section
When you the proud owner of a grid section, you have access to its perks. You need a certain minimum threshold of control points to have actual access.
  • NPC Vendors for rare or very rare gear, some only available at this location
  • NPC Bridge Officer trainer that train rank III skills (costs are higher than usual, of course)
  • NPC Bridge Officer aquisition with superior traits (costs are higher than usual, of course)
  • Access to Crafting Station for unusual gear, including possibly set items and consumables.
  • Territory Control Advantage Abilities. These abilities gain advantages in engagements that happen as part
  • Increased control point gains in adjoining sectors.

Maintaining a grid section
Maintaining includes protecting yourself from PvP Raids and Conquest attempts, but also PvE goals. If you fail to satisfy these goals, you lose control points. Achieving the goals might yield rewards on your own, as you complete unique PvE or PvP missions.

Grid Section Points of Interest
These are example of the various PvP objectives. Some might be available multiple times.

Tachyon Detection Grid Command Center
The Tachyon Detection Grid Command Center coordinates the various tachyon detection satellites throughout the sector. Controlling it grants access to its resources, and also allows sabotage of opponent's tachyon detection abilities.

On the Grid Command Center, you can acquire two consumables. Each consumable has 3 charges, requires no device slot and is unique, e.g. you can have only one of each on you. They have a shared 2 minute cooldown and an individual 5 minute cooldown.
  • Tachyon Detection Aid: For 15 seconds, all hostile cloaked vessels are revealed on your current map.
  • Tachyon Detection Sabotage: For 30 seconds, Tachyon Detection Aid is supressed on your current map.

Subspace Communication Relais
Owning the relais gives instant and safe subspace communication between all vessels in the area, and allows your side to react more quickly to threats.
On the Relais, you can acquire one consumable. The consumable has 3 charges, requires no device slot and is unique, and has a 5 minute cooldown. Upon consumption, you call in one PvE ship to your aid. The ship lasts until it is destroyed or you leave the current map.

Nebula Mining Facility
A mining facility in the middle of a nebula that is used to mine various gases.
You can get Hydrogen Surplus fuel or similar things here.

Dilithium Mining Facility
A planetary mining facility where you gather dilithium.
You might earn "raw dilithium" crystal consumables that provide a boost of sector space speed.

Transwarp Gate
Owning the transwarp gate allows you to buy a consumable transwarp token with which you can reach it at any time from any location. (Which allows you to get faster into the PvP area if you're doing something else, but you have to defend a PvP objective, or attack one.)

Research & Development Station
A station where you get access to Rank III power trainers for Science skills, and craft special science consoles, deflectors, science kits and personal shields.

Repair Facility
A station where ships can go to repair ship injuries. On the station you can also find a Rank III power trainer for Engineering skills, and craft special engineering consoles, impulse engines, engineering kits, and personal armor

Military Observation Post
A base within an asteroid field. Grants access to Rank III power trainier for Tactical skills, and you can craft special tactical consoles, shield arrays, tactical kits and personal weapons.

Planetary Colony
A large planet with cities and all. Grants you access to new Duty Officers and rare bridge officers.

Large Nebula
A large, expansive nebula that hinders interstellar navigation. Freighters of both factions fly through its thinnest area, but need to drop to sublight at a few spots, increasing the risk of raids.
Features an Open PvP zone where you defend or attack enemy freighters.
Raids focus on conquering enemy freighters (and the defenders try to save them), Conquest is about taking control of various satellites within the nebula that are used to determine the safest path through it.

Faction HQ
The faction HQ provides access to an Emblem Vendor and normal Crafting consoles and maybe even special crafting consoles for unusual weapons.. While you have control of your HQ, you also have access to "generic" mission givers that set PvP and Territory Control related goals, like "conquer grid x-y" or "destroy 20 player ships" or "win 5 Open PvP battles".
If you've lost control, your only mission is to retake your HQ.
The HQ might be associated to a station, but might actually be located on an inhabitated planet, allowing more interesting plantery and urban warfare on the ground.
well done mustrum
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
01-06-2012, 06:19 PM
i endorse anything to do with territory pvp, im sure alot of what mustrum wrote can be done. One thing that might make this territory pvp a success is dilithium. Its valuable and people want a lot of it. Make it so that this gameplay, this sector, the major rewards are siginificant amounts of dilithium.

lay down a new sector, put 50 star systems in it. Normal star systems. Except these star systems are persistent instances? Get it, so if I enter it, and 10 other people do, we are all on the same instance and not separated. Instance cap it at 50 or whatever you can handle for the time being.

Then allow us to build at least one base per system, which has various support facilities. Perhaps if the enemy wants to contest the system they have to build a base there too, or destroy yours and build their own. Or the base could be a persistent base and the sector is populated already by klingon and federation bases, instead of being destroyed, it can be captured and used by either faction. (just throwing out ideas, to set off sparks in the devs heads.) Also consider adding the ability to play as the mirror universe as a faction, because theres too many feds vs klingons...

To capture it, in addition to a space battle versus, npc ships + player ships, (cause the base will have its own defenses) you have to beam down and attack as well and fight your way through the base to the operations centre, and take control of it. Then you have to hold control of the ops centre for a certain amount of time, during which the enemy could take it back. Before it becomes captured by you.

I can just imagine the intense ground pvp battles in the corridors of the base as you try to advance towards the ops centre, and the opposing faction tries to hold on. All the while screaming for more people to come to the system and beam down to help, and the attackers screaming for help. This would really be cool since finally our transporters, and the ground combat portion of the game can shine, its what sto had/has that most others dont. ground play and space play, take advantage of it, beaming down from space, to get in on a persistent fight on the ground, for the ownership of the station would be awesome.

in terms of being blown up multiple times during space combat, there needs to be something which will bring an end to the space portion of it. Instead of using the old reinforcement counter for each team like Battlefield. What I suggest is making it like ground combat.

If you hull reaches 0, your ship looks like crap ( which it really does when you have low hull, with hull breaches and fire and plasma leaks) and your ship is marked as disabled. So another friendly ship has to come and repair you for you to resume fighting. Otherwise if all your team is dead or your just losing and you want out, you could choose to be "salvaged" (because your ADRIFT BUT SALVAGABLE , and this makes you spawn at the nearest friendly system and you have to fly back to the combat system, if you are going back.

pvp in this game is too fun to keep it without a reason....its so fun even tho the main reason for winning or playing is pride. Ive wasted countless hours being addicted and playing match after match trying to win and do well, and the matches are incredibly fun when you have two good teams. Please do somethign similar to what we are asking for, and not only will all the old pvpers return, but this will build a huge healthy pvp community within the game which will keep growing/ Being f2p now all the old trek pvpers will come, I was a big fan of SFC, and that game had a large community.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
01-06-2012, 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruis.In View Post
i endorse anything to do with territory pvp, im sure alot of what mustrum wrote can be done. One thing that might make this territory pvp a success is dilithium. Its valuable and people want a lot of it. Make it so that this gameplay, this sector, the major rewards are siginificant amounts of dilithium.

lay down a new sector, put 50 star systems in it. Normal star systems. Except these star systems are persistent instances? Get it, so if I enter it, and 10 other people do, we are all on the same instance and not separated. Instance cap it at 50 or whatever you can handle for the time being.

Then allow us to build at least one base per system, which has various support facilities. Perhaps if the enemy wants to contest the system they have to build a base there too, or destroy yours and build their own. Or the base could be a persistent base and the sector is populated already by klingon and federation bases, instead of being destroyed, it can be captured and used by either faction. (just throwing out ideas, to set off sparks in the devs heads.) Also consider adding the ability to play as the mirror universe as a faction, because theres too many feds vs klingons...

To capture it, in addition to a space battle versus, npc ships + player ships, (cause the base will have its own defenses) you have to beam down and attack as well and fight your way through the base to the operations centre, and take control of it. Then you have to hold control of the ops centre for a certain amount of time, during which the enemy could take it back. Before it becomes captured by you.

I can just imagine the intense ground pvp battles in the corridors of the base as you try to advance towards the ops centre, and the opposing faction tries to hold on. All the while screaming for more people to come to the system and beam down to help, and the attackers screaming for help. This would really be cool since finally our transporters, and the ground combat portion of the game can shine, its what sto had/has that most others dont. ground play and space play, take advantage of it, beaming down from space, to get in on a persistent fight on the ground, for the ownership of the station would be awesome.

in terms of being blown up multiple times during space combat, there needs to be something which will bring an end to the space portion of it. Instead of using the old reinforcement counter for each team like Battlefield. What I suggest is making it like ground combat.

If you hull reaches 0, your ship looks like crap ( which it really does when you have low hull, with hull breaches and fire and plasma leaks) and your ship is marked as disabled. So another friendly ship has to come and repair you for you to resume fighting. Otherwise if all your team is dead or your just losing and you want out, you could choose to be "salvaged" (because your ADRIFT BUT SALVAGABLE , and this makes you spawn at the nearest friendly system and you have to fly back to the combat system, if you are going back.

pvp in this game is too fun to keep it without a reason....its so fun even tho the main reason for winning or playing is pride. Ive wasted countless hours being addicted and playing match after match trying to win and do well, and the matches are incredibly fun when you have two good teams. Please do somethign similar to what we are asking for, and not only will all the old pvpers return, but this will build a huge healthy pvp community within the game which will keep growing/ Being f2p now all the old trek pvpers will come, I was a big fan of SFC, and that game had a large community.
I like this idea devs. Make it so.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
01-06-2012, 09:37 PM
Territory control of systems with tactical rewards for the controlling faction.

This is the tried and true motivation for PVP.


Systems with rare type dilithium mines for a few % of warp core efficiency or power levels, ruins of ancient civilizations that give interesting bonuses, astrological phenomena, strange worlds with races that have unique technology or mental abilities.



Instead of laying down player created structures or what not though a simple facility or control structure would work, just hold it for the designated time and it switches to the controlling faction.

Would save a lot of testing and design time, although you could have decoration etc that changes with the faction without much trouble at all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
01-07-2012, 01:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matcap View Post
well done mustrum
Wow, you dug that old thing up!

I tend to believe the community had a lot of good ideas by now. It's time to implement them. If they can't decide what to do - well, ask the community. But there aren't really any new ideas anymore - just variations of existing ones. And we may spend too mcuh time on details when the goal isn't even clear yet, nor the technical possibilities.

Personally I think for the existing PvP community, a big boon would already be to just have leaderboards and a league ranking system. It provides some persistent meaning to past achievements, and it solves problems like "Premades faceroll PuGs all the time and ruin all our fun" claims.
Look at games like Starcraft 2 for ideas on how to implement such a league/leaderboard system.
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