Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
01-06-2012, 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
The Skill Points have been Split between Space and Ground instead of each simply having is own pool.
You made a long post, so still reading it, but just wanted to initially point out that they essentially did that... you are just as effective in space as you were last week (give or take 1%), and you get points for ground, whether you wanted them or not. If they had given seperate pools, it would have worked out the same due to the adjusted cost of skill points....

Onto reading the rest of your post, so far, that's the only thing I disagree with

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
Additional Space Skills exist now which seem fairly pointless, such as Driver Coil which should just be part of the ship not a skill.

Ground Tactical Initiative has been brought in-line with the Space Counterpart which itself was another very unimpressive tactical Ability.
Driver Coil is nice if you want to zip around sector space doing DOff assignments or participate in the race, but for space battles themselves, you're right... I personally maxed it out though, nice to move around sector space at warp 20/30

Tactical Initiative, I'm undecided... I can see it being OP, but also dont like the fact there wasn't much of a discussion... it was in Tribble for testing, but without having pointed it out in patch notes, kind of caught us all by surprise.... that said, it's still a nice ability to have, when skilled, it still is a nice chunk off the cooldowns...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
01-06-2012, 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
There are very few abilities affected by skills now, I wouldn't be surprised if FoMM received no buff outside of the stealth buff. Sensor Scan is useful everywhere IMO, even now it's a -67 DR debuff on up to 15 (IIRC) targets. That's impressive for a skill with a fairly short cooldown.
Miscommunicatio: I meant its stealth sight is usually useless the rest of Sensor Scan is very useful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
01-06-2012, 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I disagree here. Having my Attack patterns, CRF/CSV, HYT/TS reduced by 50% on average is a huge bonus for those get-in-kill-something-get-out moments. Couple it with PO and the ability turn around ship wide is really fast as TI gets the Tacpowers and PO gets almost everything else.

Your observation here is possibly (maybe) the reason why the restructure of the new tree seems to favor Tacs first, Engineers second and then Science toons, as an attempt to re-aligned those classes into doing what they are suppossed to do best.
Its a theory of mine.
This way the Mage(science) is not out killing all willy-nilly like the terminator with the Cleric(engineer) while the fighter (tactical) is stuck healing becuase his gun isn't as good as the others by comparison.
As to the first part here I am almost wondering what you need the CD on those BOFFs so much for? If you are so desperate for an Alpha Strike it should have been taken care of on your first pass. If you need to go another few rounds then it is likely that your setup is having some difficulties or you have been really messed with by another ship. The best use for TI is to try and counteract the ever dreaded Subnucleonic Beam and it helps but we all know it does not save your rear immediately which can sometimes be too late. While having the BOFFs up and running again on an Escort type ship is a little boost if you want full power you are waiting still for FOMM and APA. APA, FOMM, APO, TF, CRF, THY, and the rest is history for whatever you are attacking.

Keep in mind I said it was ok and somewhat useful but compare this to Subnucleonic Beam, Wipes out all Buffs... This can end your healing, stop your alpha strike cold, and drop your tank in mere seconds. It then makes everything take forever to cool down. Think that might be a bit stronger than getting your own Tactical BOFF's up a little faster? I can tell you a Sci Captain in an Escort is a scary thing to behold. You hit your emergency "Save my Butt!" buttons and they wipe them out and blow you up in an instant. How about it stacking up Vs. the Ultimate "Pull my buns out of the Oven" button: Miracle Worker? That is one nice skill for saving your skin. My Guramba is almost as good as any cruiser in terms of Tank because of my Engy Captain. How about EPS Transfer? Tons of energy when you need it and combine that with NI and you can dish out a lot more damage with those energy weapons than you could hope achieve just by refreshing them without FOMM and APA.


As for the patch helping out Tacticals the most?... I am not really seeing that. It seems to have weakened power levels across the board and hurt damage a little again. It does make flying an Escort a little easier points-wise if that is what you mean but it REALLY helps an Engineer in an Escort to shine lol. It mostly nerfed Science Vessels and Science Captains more than anything else. I will admit that Sciships/Captains were a bit OP and may still be a bit OP compared to others and maybe they need to be knocked down a peg but I have a better solution which I will let fly in another thread.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardoc
You made a long post, so still reading it, but just wanted to initially point out that they essentially did that... you are just as effective in space as you were last week (give or take 1%), and you get points for ground, whether you wanted them or not. If they had given seperate pools, it would have worked out the same due to the adjusted cost of skill points....

Onto reading the rest of your post, so far, that's the only thing I disagree with

EDIT:

Driver Coil is nice if you want to zip around sector space doing DOff assignments or participate in the race, but for space battles themselves, you're right... I personally maxed it out though, nice to move around sector space at warp 20/30

Tactical Initiative, I'm undecided... I can see it being OP, but also dont like the fact there wasn't much of a discussion... it was in Tribble for testing, but without having pointed it out in patch notes, kind of caught us all by surprise.... that said, it's still a nice ability to have, when skilled, it still is a nice chunk off the cooldowns...

You are partially incorrect... Not all builds are as effective in space as before. I can tell you that the power level skills, for instance, are not working as strongly even at full bore as they used to. My D'Kyr has lost considerable damage output compared to where it was even while trying very diligently to prevent this from happening. SOME ships and setups are not harmed by this: My Engineer in a Guramba is practically MORE powerful than she was before but that is because she has so few skills to care about it. If you are dealing with anything E-War related then you suddenly start to suck it up fast and not due to a lack of SP but because you cannot SPEND the SP where you want to.


My point about Driver Coil is not that its effects are totally without use... It is that it is a piece of equipment NOT a skill... I can only guess that they mean that your captain has more intimate engineering knowledge of how it works and thus can fine tune it better. Even still: It should just be a given that it is there and up to max. It is not really the sort of skill I think needs to be spelled out or given to actual leveling.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
01-07-2012, 05:46 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
As to the first part here I am almost wondering what you need the CD on those BOFFs so much for? If you are so desperate for an Alpha Strike it should have been taken care of on your first pass. If you need to go another few rounds then it is likely that your setup is having some difficulties or you have been really messed with by another ship. The best use for TI is to try and counteract the ever dreaded Subnucleonic Beam and it helps but we all know it does not save your rear immediately which can sometimes be too late. While having the BOFFs up and running again on an Escort type ship is a little boost if you want full power you are waiting still for FOMM and APA. APA, FOMM, APO, TF, CRF, THY, and the rest is history for whatever you are attacking.
The best defense for an Escort being a good offense. The best offense being one that can be used rapidly in succession.
Becuase it allows faster turn around after the Alpha attack on my tactical BOff buff powers. TI is not just for the alpha-strike anymore and Alpha's don't always kill in the first pass.
At least not for the medium level player like myself, sometimes constant pressure must be maintained.
Couple TI3 with PO1 and you have a Escort (BoP at least) that can fire 4+ fully buffed strikes for high damage and keep defensive BOff abilities at high resist/heal on near constant rotation for over a full minute before the effects where off.

Quote:
Keep in mind I said it was ok and somewhat useful but compare this to Subnucleonic Beam, Wipes out all Buffs... This can end your healing, stop your alpha strike cold, and drop your tank in mere seconds. It then makes everything take forever to cool down. Think that might be a bit stronger than getting your own Tactical BOFF's up a little faster? I can tell you a Sci Captain in an Escort is a scary thing to behold. You hit your emergency "Save my Butt!" buttons and they wipe them out and blow you up in an instant. How about it stacking up Vs. the Ultimate "Pull my buns out of the Oven" button: Miracle Worker? That is one nice skill for saving your skin. My Guramba is almost as good as any cruiser in terms of Tank because of my Engy Captain. How about EPS Transfer? Tons of energy when you need it and combine that with NI and you can dish out a lot more damage with those energy weapons than you could hope achieve just by refreshing them without FOMM and APA.
I'm not disagreeing that SNB (and science) is more effective in PvP, Hence why so many Science toons are in escorts now-a-days. The same can be said for Engineers- they work very well in a Defiant-R. A good blending of firepower and tanking.
The Tactical Captain ahs long had the perception of Being OP because in STO is a damage based game. You must kill things quickly and heal from damage quickly. Due to this the Tactical captain abilities have seen little nerf or buff over the last two years.
I agree that a revisit would be nice so the one-trick pony of being tactical actually has a trick worth watching.

Quote:
As for the patch helping out Tacticals the most?...
Tacticals have the easiest time spending points in the new tree as they need only points in the weapon skills, Hull buff and sjield Buff skills, the Defense and targeting skills, the POwer level skills and possibly the Critical Chance/Severity skills to make a damaging but surdy vessel.
Engineers come in behind them as they really do not need to buy anything but the above mentioned skills to be effective at damage output and have the inherent tankiness of their carreer to support thier survival.

Science is the worst at the new skill tree, but such is the price of throwing gravity wells and other high powered abilities around willy-nilly I suppose.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
01-07-2012, 06:09 PM
[quote=Roach;3936967]
Quote:
The best defense for an Escort being a good offense. The best offense being one that can be used rapidly in succession.
Becuase it allows faster turn around after the Alpha attack on my tactical BOff buff powers. TI is not just for the alpha-strike anymore and Alpha's don't always kill in the first pass.
At least not for the medium level player like myself, sometimes constant pressure must be maintained.
Couple TI3 with PO1 and you have a Escort (BoP at least) that can fire 4+ fully buffed strikes for high damage and keep defensive BOff abilities at high resist/heal on near constant rotation for over a full minute before the effects where off.

I'm not disagreeing that SNB (and science) is more effective in PvP, Hence why so many Science toons are in escorts now-a-days. The same can be said for Engineers- they work very well in a Defiant-R. A good blending of firepower and tanking.
The Tactical Captain ahs long had the perception of Being OP because in STO is a damage based game. You must kill things quickly and heal from damage quickly. Due to this the Tactical captain abilities have seen little nerf or buff over the last two years.
I agree that a revisit would be nice so the one-trick pony of being tactical actually has a trick worth watching.


Tacticals have the easiest time spending points in the new tree as they need only points in the weapon skills, Hull buff and sjield Buff skills, the Defense and targeting skills, the POwer level skills and possibly the Critical Chance/Severity skills to make a damaging but surdy vessel.
Engineers come in behind them as they really do not need to buy anything but the above mentioned skills to be effective at damage output and have the inherent tankiness of their carreer to support thier survival.

Science is the worst at the new skill tree, but such is the price of throwing gravity wells and other high powered abilities around willy-nilly I suppose.

Oh... Medium level player? Well... Ok I was assuming this for max level players. I have never bothered PvP'ing at anything but max level so that is probably a fair bit different. At max level my Alpha will destroy any ship I unleash it on if they cannot completely negate my attack somehow or some other ship does that for them lol. (I hate Sub Nukes for this reason... Not that I hesitate to use them myself mind ye LOL! )



I think the big problem between the Captain types comes down to this oddity: Science Captains are FAR superior to Tacticals in PvP because Players use a lot of skills and have Strategies to be messed with. Tacticals are better in PvE because NPC ships do not use strategy at all and barely use any abilities either making the Science effects much less useful than raw damage.

The best thing that could happen here is make the Tactical Captains a bit more viable for PvP again and the NPC's smarter so the Science Captains are useful in PvE. I have said it once, and I will say it many more times, I HATE Dumb enemies that cheat to try and be better. Smarter > OP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
01-07-2012, 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruis.In View Post
tac init on the ground no longer fully recharges skills u used. it puts my s ecurity escort to 53 seconds from 3m...have to wait 53 seconds. so no more 4 escorts on the ground as by the time it couints down the 53, your other two have beamed up. So no more red shirt army.

i agree. tac captains are a niche crowd. in pvp and pve. really good pilots know their role and are very effective in the team, with the support from cruisers and science ships. Science ships and cruisers, are more versatile and flexible, able to hang around longer in a fight, take more damage, heal more, so its just like the argument on star trek when they introduced the defiant, obrien didn't like it because it wasn't as versatile as a galaxy class, but kira loved it because it packed a punch and that is all she wanted.

so if your playing it and trying to play it as a sci or cruiser your playing it wrong, you will die and you will be useless. But played effectively, it is critical to the team.
what if you used tactical init' in succession with other tac's? Would that bring the recharge time down further???
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
01-08-2012, 01:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
what if you used tactical init' in succession with other tac's? Would that bring the recharge time down further???
Have not tried that but it is worth testing. If I can grab a few tactical friends I will see what happens.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
01-08-2012, 08:36 AM
Quote:
Oh... Medium level player? Well... Ok I was assuming this for max level players. I have never bothered PvP'ing at anything but max level so that is probably a fair bit different. At max level my Alpha will destroy any ship I unleash it on if they cannot completely negate my attack somehow or some other ship does that for them lol. (I hate Sub Nukes for this reason... Not that I hesitate to use them myself mind ye LOL! )
Medium level meaning I do not possess those elite skills of play portrayed by others like say, Hilbert, Zorena, etc.
I still swim in the deep end of the pool though as its the only way to get back to near the top.
While I agree that the Tactical Captain abilites seem less upfront useful than the Science and the Engineering, TI3 still has a good purpose and may only need a minor tweak to bring it up to par.

Tactical Initiative:
•Used by: Commander (good level to have it availible at)
•Target: Self and Allies (4 max) (the player plus four teamates means 5 man groups can function very well)
•System: None
•Ability Type: N/A
•Activation: 0.5 secs
•Range: 10 km (nobody keeping close is left out of the TI love)
•Shares cooldown with:
◦None
•Starts cooldown on:
◦Self
•Modified by:
◦Skills (these need to be updated. What skills do effect this now-if any?)
■Starship Command
■Starship Combat Maneuvers
■Starship Battle Strategy
◦Stats
■None
•Trained by:
◦This ability cannot be trained
[edit] Ability RanksAbility/User Rank CD SPR Ability Effects
Rank I: Commander 180s - •Recharge timers of tactical bridge officers reduced to 0.40 of their normal value for 45 sec

Rank II: Captain 180s - •Recharge timers of tactical bridge officers reduced to 0.47 of their normal value for 45 sec

Rank III: Admiral 180s - •Recharge timers of tactical bridge officers reduced to 0.53 of their normal value for 45 sec

Possibly add a small damage modifier of say; +2%, +3% and +4% respectively.
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