Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 951
01-08-2012, 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TF-Omega View Post
.
sorry but i could not read your whole post. stop putting max 9 points. the 9th point is wasted. my tact defiant-r has the same build it used to b4 the update. also i had 50/50 as well b4 last update. let me tell you a 50/50 build can still pwn a 100% sapce build.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 952
01-08-2012, 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
sorry but i could not read your whole post. stop putting max 9 points. the 9th point is wasted. my tact defiant-r has the same build it used to b4 the update. also i had 50/50 as well b4 last update. let me tell you a 50/50 build can still pwn a 100% sapce build.
I already answered you. It is possible to put points into all the same skills you had before, but it is impossible to have the same points in all of those same skills like you had before. Feel free to visit Ker'rat to support your claim.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 953
01-08-2012, 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TF-Omega View Post
yes I do.. fully... if everyone is on the same level, then it is hard to specialize in any one role (tac, science, eng). Everyone has now become mediocre. So, of course people will think that everyone is on the same playing field. I fully understand what everyone is saying.. in fact, I just said it.

snip/

something completely incoherent about 10s and now only 5s, dumbing it down, 10% and 20% chances, not being able to min/max as well

/snip

I DO fully understand all the changes. Now, hopefully, you do too.
i dont think something more confusing could have been posted. whats with these hypothetical and numbers? they don't mean anything, and they don't accurately describe any of the changes.

lets look at what actually changed

all the ship buffing skills at every tier were split apart into the new + to accuracy, +to defense, + to turn rate,+ to hitpoints, + to criticals + to energy resist, and + to kinetic resist. not every ship type needs all those types of buffs, you can choose which of those are actually important to your type of ship and invest only in them.

what used to force you to fly and spec 1 ship type is gone, those skills were all split apart now so you can fly any ship, and skill it only with whats needed for your play style, ship type, and role. same with weapons, use any energy and projectile type you like. a bunch more extremely limiting skills eliminated, and a bunch of point sinks eliminated, so more buying power and better min/maxing.

all the confusing operations and maintenance skills are gone, replaced by hull repair, shield emitters, and an eps transfer rate skill. i'll proboly forget to mention a skill or 2, oh well. all 4 efficiency skills were shrunk into 1 skill, 1 now does what 4 used too, thats just gravy, and a lose of a point sink. there's the strait + to energy levels skill too. overall its less confusing, not dumbed down. everything functions better then before, and point sinks were eliminating, increasing buying power.

the science skills now very specifically buff science skills, its less about broad skill categorys then before. now keeping your science point expenditure at a minimum doesn't limit your ability options. you don't have to choose what category you want to specialize in like emitter, and then just use emitter abilities to save skill points. you can pick and choose what ever abilities you want, and spec specifically into them.

this is great for cruisers and escorts too, that use science heals. before if you used HE and TSS, you would have had to invest in 5 different skills to fully buff them. now its just hull repair and 2 shield skills you would invest into anyway. point sinks eliminating, buying power increased, see the pattern? then there's the new defense to science abilitys skills, a way to help shrug off the most annoying of science spam if you are 1 that is often targeted by it.

on most skills it was always better to not skill past 7, that's nothing new, and now it is reenforced by design. the sharp decline in bonus past 6, and the captain teaching unlocks at 6 makes 6 the no brainier for all skills, only what you want min/maxed the most should be all the way to 9. at 6 your are still like 87% invested, when you compare your armor or energy level at 6 points and 9 points there's a barely noticeable difference between the 2. you are hardly made mediocre. in actual practice, and not in hypothetical world, you are as strong as ever in 8 out of 10 ways, stronger then before in several ways, and able to min/max better then ever.

its time to stop using the old frame of reference, it no longer applies. everyone's in the same boat too, that's the 1 thing that makes changes to this kind ok. everyone is just as 'mediocre' as you, that's the right way to 'nerf' something, nerfs are only bad when they don't effect everybody evenly, and empower something else.

even with the skill split you aren't nerfed nearly at all. they saw how everybody hated the split, so they changed the math and barely reduced the buying power. the buying power that is left is now spent on your superior min/maxing options, so the point loss is at least a wash, if not a gain. they did it right, and all that's left is for those still resistant to actually UNDERSTAND the changes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 954
01-08-2012, 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TF-Omega View Post
The argument, sir, is that I don't want to put points into something that I don't want to use. When i tried to duplicate my build before the update, I was shy 53K (on the new scale) from being able to reproduce that build. How can that make me stronger? I take mathematics over pudding any day because pudding tastes different to everyone and math is absolute. These guys are telling me I have to put 7's or 8's in the majority of my categories to have enough left over points to distribute more widely among my former skills that I can no longer put the points into by duplicating my build. How does that make me stronger? It makes me more mediocre. Can i throw a grenade at you in space? I didn't think so, but yet, I have points in that skill too.
BigRedJedi where are you when we need you?

The number crunchers in the PvP community I respect the most have not complained about the skill change. From what I have read, (and he can correct me if I misread), Mustrum approves of the changes.

Simply put...

A lot of skills were completely REMOVED.

Low level points mean much more.

High level points mean a lot less.

What you have goes a lot further.

So far each class I converted has specializations that make the game play between each a little different.

The ships do play just about the same in STFs and in PvP as they did before.

This is a global change, a level playing field, not a nerf.

Your fixation on 53k points and grenades you can't toss in space is irrelevant. Do you think a NASA astronaut needs his reactive jet skills to drive a car? Do you think that Commander Chris Cassidy Needs his U.S. Navy SEAL combat training when he installs platforms on the International Space Station during STS 127? I assure you Cassidy can more than lob a grenade. Welcome to a touch of reality in a game.

A snippet from Cassidy's bio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NASA
SPECIAL HONORS: Honor graduate of Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL (BUD/S) Class 192. Awarded the Bronze Star with combat V and Presidential Unit Citation for leading a 9-day operation at the Zharwar Kili cave complex a national priority objective directly on the Afghan/Pakistan border. Quest speaker at the USNA Combat Leadership Seminar (2003 & 2004). Awarded a second Bronze Star for combat leadership service in Afghanistan in 2004. Recipient of NASA Exceptional Achievement Medal.

EXPERIENCE: Ten years as a member of the U.S. Navy SEAL Teams. Specialized tactics include long range special reconnaissance (vehicular and foot patrols), direct action building assaults, non-compliant ship-boardings, desert reconnaissance patrols, combat diving, underwater explosives, and a variety of air operations, to include parachuting, fast roping, and rappelling. He made four six-month deployments: two to Afghanistan, and two to the Mediterranean. Cassidy served as Executive Officer and Operations Officer of Special Boat Team Twenty in Norfolk, Virginia, and SEAL Platoon Commander at SEAL Team THREE in Coronado, California. He deployed to the Afghanistan region two weeks after 9/11/01. He served as Ground Assault Force Commander for international and U.S. only combat missions in Afghanistan. Led two months of non-compliant ship-boardings in the Northern Arabian Gulf. Was SEAL Delivery Vehicle Platoon Commander at SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team TWO in Norfolk, VA. He accumulated over 200 hours underwater as Pilot / Navigator / Mission Commander of a 2-man flooded submersible (SDV), which is launched and recovered from a host-ship submarine. He also served as Dry Deck Shelter Platoon Commander at SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team TWO in Norfolk, VA Cassidy volunteered for and completed a week-long, 180-mile charity kayak paddle from Norfolk, VA to Washington, D.C. to raise money and awareness for the Special Operations Warrior Foundation.

NASA EXPERIENCE: Selected by NASA in May 2004. In February 2006, he completed Astronaut Candidate Training that included scientific and technical briefings, intensive instruction in Shuttle and International Space Station systems, physiological training, T-38 flight training, and water and wilderness survival training. Completion of this initial training qualified him for various technical assignments within the Astronaut Office and future flight assignment as a mission specialist. From 2006 to 2008 he served as CAPCOM in Mission Control. In July 2009, Cassidy completed his first space flight and logged more than 376 hours in space, including 18 hours and 5 minutes of EVA in three spacewalks.
The man is trained in Ocean Engineering! When does he use that in space? Yet he's a real life astronaut.

As a paramilitary organization do you think that Starfleet officers would have some degree of ground combat training? I would hope so. Otherwise how is RSP gonna repel a hostile boarding?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 955 Skill Split Sucks!!!!!!
01-09-2012, 03:32 PM
I hate doing ground combat because of the lag that i get, so I put most of my points into space skills. Space combat is also more fun, because ground has so many enemies that oneshot you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 956
01-09-2012, 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
all the ship buffing skills at every tier were split apart into the new + to accuracy, +to defense, + to turn rate,+ to hitpoints, + to criticals + to energy resist, and + to kinetic resist. not every ship type needs all those types of buffs, you can choose which of those are actually important to your type of ship and invest only in them.
I would highly disagree with that statement. Those passives are extremely useful to every ship class, and the way they were split up vastly increases the cost to skill them.

Quote:
what used to force you to fly and spec 1 ship type is gone, those skills were all split apart now so you can fly any ship, and skill it only with whats needed for your play style, ship type, and role. same with weapons, use any energy and projectile type you like. a bunch more extremely limiting skills eliminated, and a bunch of point sinks eliminated, so more buying power and better min/maxing.
Not true at all. If you want to optimize your spec into a particular ship class, you are going to skill differently for each ship class in this system. You can much easier switch between say two different escorts, but going from escort to science ship pretty much demands a respec unless you specced so generally you are not really specced for anything.


Quote:
all the confusing operations and maintenance skills are gone, replaced by hull repair, shield emitters, and an eps transfer rate skill. i'll proboly forget to mention a skill or 2, oh well. all 4 efficiency skills were shrunk into 1 skill, 1 now does what 4 used too, thats just gravy, and a lose of a point sink. there's the strait + to energy levels skill too. overall its less confusing, not dumbed down. everything functions better then before, and point sinks were eliminating, increasing buying power.

With the removal of the three different tiers of skill spending (Tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3-5), BOFF powers are wholly dependent on putting points directly into the skill required for them. In the old system you could more effectively swap BOFF powers because you were most likely specced into the appropriate tier 1 and 2 skills which toegether could give you 48% effectiveness. Now if you do not directly spec into the skill, that boff power operate at base effectiveness, not half, which makes you less versatile.

Don't also forget that some skills now require up to 3 tier 3-5 skills to maximize all effects. Photonic shockwave requires graviton generators, particle generators, and subspace decompiler. That is not simpler, nor cheaper by any stretch.

Quote:
the science skills now very specifically buff science skills, its less about broad skill categorys then before. now keeping your science point expenditure at a minimum doesn't limit your ability options. you don't have to choose what category you want to specialize in like emitter, and then just use emitter abilities to save skill points. you can pick and choose what ever abilities you want, and spec specifically into them.
Completely false. Again in the old system, you would spec into Starship Operations and emitters, sensors, and deflector skills which gave you a benefit to any science power you wanted to use. The tier 3-5 skills added more to that effectiveness, of course, but without those, you were likely specced to 45-48% for any given skill.

In the new system, you can't do that at all. You would have to rank every skill to 3 to get that same effect. That is far more prohibitive in terms of cost, and because it is a bad idea to do that, you are not likely to be able to switch between multiple BOFF powers effectively.

Quote:
this is great for cruisers and escorts too, that use science heals. before if you used HE and TSS, you would have had to invest in 5 different skills to fully buff them. now its just hull repair and 2 shield skills you would invest into anyway. point sinks eliminating, buying power increased, see the pattern? then there's the new defense to science abilitys skills, a way to help shrug off the most annoying of science spam if you are 1 that is often targeted by it.
Cruisers and escorts make out far better in the new tree than science ships, regardless, I still can't quite reproduce the season 4 builds I had for those ships because there are less points and more places that would require them.

Quote:
its time to stop using the old frame of reference, it no longer applies. everyone's in the same boat too, that's the 1 thing that makes changes to this kind ok. everyone is just as 'mediocre' as you, that's the right way to 'nerf' something, nerfs are only bad when they don't effect everybody evenly, and empower something else.
No, not everyone is in the same boat. Science ships got royally hurt by this change with the prohibitive cost of tier 5 skills and the lack of general low cost spending that gave a broad effectiveness, in addition to the split and increased cost of the passive ship skills from the tactical and engineering trees. And do not forget the new skills added that are direct inhibit a number of science powers.

And again, I can't 100% reproduce my builds at all on any ship. Overall my effectiveness in certain areas dropped, some far more than others, though, depending on the ship, but there are things that are definitely less possible now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 957
01-09-2012, 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TF-Omega View Post
I already answered you. It is possible to put points into all the same skills you had before, but it is impossible to have the same points in all of those same skills like you had before. Feel free to visit Ker'rat to support your claim.
Ker'rat is pro noob map. but we can pvp in a solo match and ill put most my points into ground and see if u are any good. like i said stop maxing the skills to 9 points.
you can get most of your old build back. the devs said this will hit the sci skills the most. that was needed. atm the sci skills are the most bs. reason we have less points for space is becuse you no longer need to skill wep types, ship types ect..... just go and google skill planner. play around with the new point system. then you can see how you need to put your points. trust me when i say you dident get hit with a nerf bat. just took a slight reduction in the power of space fighting. but its nothing you can really notice. people should have some type of points in ground. now you can play elite missions with out getting owned badly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 958
01-10-2012, 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
.
He was only quoting release notes.. not real world application of how the changes affect the game overall.. even as an unintended side effect.

I, as a programmer, make mistakes sometimes and have unintended side effects from my programming that do not reflect my intentions. Cryptic does too. That's why i asked him to look at the larger picture.

Even NASA makes mistakes, but don't ask me to start naming them off.

Bottom line is, humans programmed this game, and it is going to have errors and unintended side effects. It happens all the time, but I am not going to sit here and quote release notes and call them the Bible of STO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 959
01-10-2012, 05:56 PM
Yeah, not a fan of the split... Mainly because of the fact that it doesnt make sense.

Let me explain...

You have, for each type of skill point, 1) Total Spent and 2) Max allowed. There are some cases where the total spent do not match up with the max allowed.

Example:

My main toon has a Max Space allowance of 300,000 and a Total spent of 300,000. The Max Ground is 100,000 but total spent is 66,000. Soo, 34,000 skill points are lost in space somewhere...

My guess is that the Max allowable goes by rank and not level (which should be changed b/c it is too confusing especially at lower levels where you find yourself at the lower end of the Rank).

Another reason why I'm not a huge fan of the change is b/c there is a lot less of the Admiral level skills that I can actually spend my skill points on. This is going off of the premise of spending minimum allowable points in each of the rank skill tiers.

I'm glad you guys are doing all you can to revise the skill trees but I'm finding it a little annoying that it seems that the point allocation hasn't really been tested that much.

Just my opinion. Thanks!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 960
01-10-2012, 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJWAmick View Post
Yeah, not a fan of the split... Mainly because of the fact that it doesnt make sense.

Let me explain...

You have, for each type of skill point, 1) Total Spent and 2) Max allowed. There are some cases where the total spent do not match up with the max allowed.

Example:

My main toon has a Max Space allowance of 300,000 and a Total spent of 300,000. The Max Ground is 100,000 but total spent is 66,000. Soo, 34,000 skill points are lost in space somewhere...

My guess is that the Max allowable goes by rank and not level (which should be changed b/c it is too confusing especially at lower levels where you find yourself at the lower end of the Rank).

Another reason why I'm not a huge fan of the change is b/c there is a lot less of the Admiral level skills that I can actually spend my skill points on. This is going off of the premise of spending minimum allowable points in each of the rank skill tiers.

I'm glad you guys are doing all you can to revise the skill trees but I'm finding it a little annoying that it seems that the point allocation hasn't really been tested that much.

Just my opinion. Thanks!
I have the oposite problem, I have 266k/300k space spent and 100k/100k ground spent. So I'll ask the same question. What happened to my 34k points?
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