Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
As a engineer in a cruiser, I'm usually just a healbot. Throw ETs, Aux to SIF, maybe an extend, but in the past, I could at least throw some DPS around to make a difference.

Now, in this MACO and Klingon honor guard shield environment, I still throw heals and... well, that's all I feel like I'm doing. The new gear, in themselves, isn't all that bad. Maybe a little too strong, but the engineer set of skills, well, despite being mostly the same, have little to no offensive utility, unlike sci and tac. It feels like everyone has some tanking ability now, and since that's always been the hallmark of engineers (and, to an extent, Sci), well, it kinda makes us redundant. Tac can just throw on more dps, and sci can just generally make your life more miserable, offensively or defensively.

My worst fear is that I'll run into a game full of engineers with new shields. Tac and Sci is fine, but dear god, if two engineers meet the first to fall asleep will be the only one dying. Tac and Sci will at least wear down an engineer. The opposite isn't true anymore.

Yes, it's always been this way somewhat, but a cruiser could always lay down a weight of fire from a broadside to at least discourage an escort. Even with a full set of MK XI purple beams, EPtW, and FaW, a escort can now just park itself off my broadside and happily shoot away. I pose absolutely no threat.

I don't know what needs to change. The shields, the skills, both? If anyone has any in game solutions, I'd be happy to hear them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-21-2012, 08:09 AM
I see where you're coming from. I play an Eng/RSV mostly.

Some matches, I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, just mashing spacebar and throwing a heal or two around every now and then. Other matches, though, I'm frantically throwing everything I've got to teammates and aching for RSF to come off of CD.

It all depends on what kind of match you're thrown in, but on average (imo), the game has taken a turn towards more of a yawn-fest thanks to the new gearsets/DOffs. Anyone and everyone can tank. Even a Tac/Defiant can be one tough cookie with 3/4 Borg + MACO shield, a few Shield Distribution DOffs, and some of those nifty ones that reduce the CD of EPtS.

Hull tanking is meh, but shield tanking is even more ridiculous now than it was before.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
01-21-2012, 10:25 AM
i dont think anything is wrong with the tanking. What you are forgetting is that with all the new gear/skills etc which are geared toward tanking, the equal has not come for dps. There has been no increase to dps, no increase to the dps that guns do, better consoles for more damage etc...

the only thin which has increased is our ability to tank. so the ability to do more damage needs to be increased. unfortunately the skills which enable higher damage to be applied are all high level skills ltcmdr or cmdr. A lot of nice tanking skills are ensign/lt level, yes the level 3 skills are better but, the ensign/lt tanking skills are far above the skills for ensign/lt tac skills. cannon rapid fire 2, csv 2, thy 2.....need improving in damage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
01-21-2012, 11:22 AM
This is why, as an engineer, I dropped my cruiser for an escort about 8 months ago. Apart from not liking the star wars feel or the appearance of the escorts, I've found the change to be very beneficial.

I found that while I lost out on raw heals (not as much as you'd expect), I could just as easily shield tank, since the difference in shield cap is rather small, the escort gets an innate bonus to it's defense and speed, it's far more manoeuvrable (and so can turn a down shield away quickly).

Now I very specifically hunt beam using cruisers when just want some light fun, especially tacts in cruisers. They either drop dead quickly, take a bit of time or simply tank like crazy, but they are never a threat. Sci-ships are dangerous, escorts are extremely dangerous, Fed cruisers though are heal-boats pure and simple and good for nothing else (something which PvEers are finding to be more and more apparent when they do elite STFs).

There are so many reasons for this:-
* Shields and hull seem to balanced in a way to give the target ship a chance to repel an attack by someone with DHCs. In comparison beams really don't measure up.
* The hull/shield buff all ships got back when they decided to have hulls buffed by lower tier ship skils.
* The reliable Borg hull/shield heal proc.
* The change to power drain (the original way the game handled power drain, gave the cruiser the edge when it came to sustained DPS due to power management skills). Also, to be honest, the old power drain method required you to think more.
* The field generator Mk XI (which I think was the one of the worst additions to the game along with the borg set bonus).
* The bonus to defense escorts got.
* Easy access to tact team without any real loss of bite.
* Hull tanking skills like attack pattern delta and omega.

Basically, all this pushed the escort well and truly out of it's danger zone and is now at a safe spot in terms of tanking.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
01-21-2012, 03:53 PM
Team play requires team play. That meaning if you are supporting your team and you are exploding then it's because your team didn't bring extend shields to support the support player. Keep at it you'll be fine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
01-21-2012, 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickhowdy View Post
Team play requires team play. That meaning if you are supporting your team and you are exploding then it's because your team didn't bring extend shields to support the support player. Keep at it you'll be fine.
Someone, over any issue, chimes in and makes the excuse "It's a team game."

To be fair, it absolutely is. If I healbot all the sci and tacs, they can devote their time to killing the other team. If I'm attacked, I try to tank the damage till my teams offense can take the heat off of me.

At least, ideally, that's how it should work. In realty, if everyone's competent, a combined assault from as few as 1 or 2 tac/sci on one engineer will overwhelm an engineer's defenses. A good defense does not make a good offense right now. A good offense DOES make a good defense though, and tac and sci have plenty of it, if properly specced. A properly specced engineer will just last a little longer. If it takes too long, their offense can switch targets, and ream another ship while the engineer has spent all his abilities. He probably has some offensive tac Boffs left, but those won't matter a bit.

Sci can go defensive or offensive, depending on Boffs. Even Tac can use AP Delta or Omega, and go evasive for significant defense. Engineers are stuck with defense, defense, and more defense. Defense as offense only works if you can wear down your opponent. Instead, Engineers are constantly kept off guard, and unable to dent any of the new shields.

The game has wildly oscillated between too much healing and too much damage in the past. Now, because of the new shields, it's in a very weird place, giving too much defense to those who shouldn't have it, and negating the offense of those with too little.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
01-21-2012, 06:56 PM
Otheym you have a point. Right now with the upcoming prevalence of MACO/Honor Guard gear The team load out will need to be something like this, Tac/Esc, Sci/Esc, SV, SV, Cruiser. I am not an uber escort pilot but last night in Kerrat I could not get a shield facing down on a defiant running the MACO shield so as everyone moves to this commonality teams will need more spike than they did before. The norm until recently was Esc, SV, SV, SV, cruiser. Now Tac Escorts will need to be a staple because of the really high Tanking the MACO shields give all ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8 Same ol game
01-21-2012, 08:16 PM
Left the game for the same reason before. PVP is simply broken and quite frankly boring and stupid. It's still WOW in space only not balanced for anything. They should take a few tips about space combat from real game like SFC, SFC2, and Orion Pirates on what space combat should be on PVP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
01-21-2012, 08:40 PM
thats your opinion. the fact is before you make changes, there needs to be wide testing with players at the highest of skills levels with the most specialized of builds.

right now we've barely scatched the surface with the strategies available and people arent going far outside of the box. theres lots of stuff and lots of different creative ways to be dangerous as a team, that would have people saying oh nerf that!

right now we can only test 5/5 what happens when we get territory pvp etc? And its 25vs25? And you all of a sudden have a situation where 25 ships are shooting you? You'll want all those 'overpowed shields' and maco sets. Or are we playing an FPS? Where one shot will kill you?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
01-21-2012, 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruis.In View Post
thats your opinion. the fact is before you make changes, there needs to be wide testing with players at the highest of skills levels with the most specialized of builds.

right now we've barely scatched the surface with the strategies available and people arent going far outside of the box. theres lots of stuff and lots of different creative ways to be dangerous as a team, that would have people saying oh nerf that!

right now we can only test 5/5 what happens when we get territory pvp etc? And its 25vs25? And you all of a sudden have a situation where 25 ships are shooting you? You'll want all those 'overpowed shields' and maco sets. Or are we playing an FPS? Where one shot will kill you?
Waiting on 'balance discussion' till we get content we probably will NEVER see sounds like a terrible idea. I'm sure there are some weird builds that haven't been fleshed out, but since(PvP wise) we've had the same maps and game modes since BETA, everythings been pretty standard for quite some time; things just get slightly changed when things change. I think your blowing some stuff a lot out of proportion.
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