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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
01-24-2012, 07:26 AM
Oh look, a Escorts are OP thread.
How original.
I look forward to the Cruisers are OP thread and the Science is OP thread next.
I find them very entertaining.
Did the OP stop to think that bugged abilities and the MACO shield help those escorts survive now with little effort and if they can do it, so can the Cruisers and Science ships?
As well, Do not all ships have access to EVM, EPTE or Dueterium and can run full power to engines to escape combat (after locking in high resist, of course)?
How are Cruisers (the traditional Engineer heavy Heal boat vessels) not surviving the escorts onslaught considering the number of Hull and Shield buffing abilities at thier disposal?
I have not come across these weak cruisers whom die so quickly, unless one counts that inexperienced guy who wandered into Ker'rat looking to get thier DL and leave, having no idea how to Tank or do PvP. Those are the only ones I see pop quickly, all teh others in K for the PvP are very hard to kill and downright impossible with the recent MACO shield/Borg set-up on them.
Before the MACO re-adjustment by teh devs, those unkillable escorts where not unkillable and survived by experienced more than anything else.
I do not see how in a barebones build teh escorts are now OP or unkillable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
01-24-2012, 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The fundamental issue to me always seems to me that the extremes on the healing and the damage sides are just too high.
Agree on that; It is just absurd that ships can heal indefinitely, but it's also absurd that some escorts can kill just about anything in one shot - and that doesn't just happen to the unsuspecting "PvE" cruiser players: I had my recon science vessel being blown up in a few seconds by one single escort, even 'though I had Tactical Team, EPtS2 and TSS3 up.

I thought "too bad, must have been a nasty crit". Then it happened again and again, and basically anything this guy targeted would blow up instantly. Conversely, targeting him would accomplish nothing, as his shields seemed to never buckle.

Where the problem really lies is that healing has been ramped up too high because the damage spikes achievable by Escorts are ridiculous; If we stop for a moment and think a bit objectively, it is clear and easy to see how most of the heal and resist skills have been tuned over the months to allow a ship to try and survive through an Escort's spike burst.

What creates the problem is that most of these skills are accessible by just any ship, including escorts. More, the skill that has become an absolute "must have" and the most effective defense of all is a tactical skill: Tactical Team. Its basic idea is to work reasonably well against the spike of a Defiant bearing a 3-mile long damage buffs list; What happens however when you pop up a Tactical Team against a Cruiser's or SV's beam attack? It happens that the shields become impenetrable.

So, Escorts get the brute firepower to get through defenses, the innate resist and opportunity to disengage at will granted by their superior speed, some additional resists granted by skills such as APO3, plus more or less the same resist skills other classes have - the only real advantage science vessels and cruisers have are EPtS3 and TSS3; On top of that, escorts don't have to withstand the same amount of firepower unless targeted by another escort.

Last, in S5 some of the higher resists/heals have been somewhat nerfed (TSS3 certainly, not sure about EPtS), taking away that little edge classes other than Escorts had.

Add the stupid +35% shields capacity console in the mix, dramatically lowering the effects of skills such as CPB and Tachyon beam, and the picture is complete: escorts have lower healing but very similar resists and dramatically better offense than other classes.

Imagine STO was an infantry battle: SV's and Cruisers are guys clad in thick, bullet and blade proof armor, bearing medkits and swords; Escorts are guys clad in the same kind of armour, carrying around no medkits but shoulder-mouted rocket launchers. Who's got the advantage?



Quote:
Originally Posted by MunstrumRidicully
I am not convinced that Escorts are necessarily "OP" or unbeatable or whatever. But I would not be surprised if the amount of healing now available even via low level BOs and the right gear is sufficient to make the Escort one of the best choices to pick - since they can combine all t his defense with a good offense.
But I would suspect that Science Vessels + Captains can still be a bit nastier. (And most likely more frustrating, being "controlled" sucks.)
Nope, "control" is pretty much gone; Gravity Well has been indirectly nerfed by the resistances to it introduced with the skill tree revamp, I still have to see an escort being "trapped" in it - and to be honest even my SV can escape it sometimes by just using an engine battery or some "dilithium surplus". The rest, as it has been stated, can be removed with Ensign level skills, mainly Science Team I - which happens to be another one of these "must have" skills.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
01-24-2012, 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
Oh look, a Escorts are OP thread.
How original.
I look forward to the Cruisers are OP thread and the Science is OP thread next.
I find them very entertaining.
Did the OP stop to think that bugged abilities and the MACO shield help those escorts survive now with little effort and if they can do it, so can the Cruisers and Science ships?
As well, Do not all ships have access to EVM, EPTE or Dueterium and can run full power to engines to escape combat (after locking in high resist, of course)?
How are Cruisers (the traditional Engineer heavy Heal boat vessels) not surviving the escorts onslaught considering the number of Hull and Shield buffing abilities at thier disposal?
I have not come across these weak cruisers whom die so quickly, unless one counts that inexperienced guy who wandered into Ker'rat looking to get thier DL and leave, having no idea how to Tank or do PvP. Those are the only ones I see pop quickly, all teh others in K for the PvP are very hard to kill and downright impossible with the recent MACO shield/Borg set-up on them.
Before the MACO re-adjustment by teh devs, those unkillable escorts where not unkillable and survived by experienced more than anything else.
I do not see how in a barebones build teh escorts are now OP or unkillable.
Its not about the escort itself. There are just some mechanics that escorts benefit the most of.

Cannons: I don't see it just on escorts/BoPs but on cruisers that can use cannons to (most klingon cruisers) I refer to the big ones, dual heavy and dual. The mechanic is completely out of the way. The weaponenergy-drain is kicking in AFTER all shots are fired of, so there is no downside by using multiple exemplars. While a beamboat has to deal with heavy weaponpower-drain, cannons just fire at maximum performance the most time. Cannon-users dont have to bother with things like EP2W thus have more room free for other useful skills.

Impulsespeed-modifier: Yes, you can get away with a cruiser or a science ship, but only to get caught again after seconds because escorts/BoPs are just way faster. Escorts however can get away roughly all the time. Dont even try to chase an escort with a cruiser. You cant. There is no ****ing way to catch up with an escort if the escort-user knows what hes doing ( its not that hard to divert all powers to engines ).

Equipment: Things like the borg-set are just ruining the game. Never was a big fan of procs and things, that depend on chance/luck. See that ship going down? Oh my - borg-proc set in. Hes at 100% in seconds, and you cant do anything about it. Its just like pushing a reset button - extremely annoying.

Tac-team: Its simply a must-have. You will die most of the time without it. Its one of the big reasons, why everyone is tanking like hell. I can remember past times, when maneuvering to get your weak shield away from your opponent and manuel shield distribution were a key element to success. Now you just press a button and everythings fine. To be honest, things like EP2S wouldnt do much without tac-team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
01-24-2012, 11:58 AM
Cannons- need the power drain the way they are presently setup. Because guess what? They are absolutely worthless at any range over 5km. (and then they really only effective at 3km or less. Otherwise they just -equal- beams) Contrary to what cruisers think, Cannons aren't going full bore constantly either.

Escorts, and Cannon Cruisers, can't afford to mount EPTw1 as the former hoses almost half their tanking potential to do so, and the latter, wastes tanking, or mobility (which is Critical in the extreme) to use it.

Cannons also require Lt level skills, at the Minimum just to get by. Beams? Just mash the space bar from 7km on down and you are good to go.

Beams, get access to Ensign level tac powers, and Better tac powers than Cannons have access to. Tell me when is the last time you saw a cannon pimp slap someone to the floor for 56k on a Cruiser? You haven't and you Won't. When's the last time you saw Cannons efficiently clean out Spam, while not losing dps? You haven't and you Won't.

When's the last time you saw a Cannon shut down a subsystem, outside of a phaser proc? You Won't.

Oh, let us also not forget the Z Axis Shenanigans that Beam Users get access to, to stay completely immune to an Escorts Burst by abusing the blind spot in cannon arcs.

The only real problem with beams v cannons is, whoever is using the beams is probably a Moron. While the Cannon guy actually has to think as he fires. Beams in the hands of someone that knows how to fly and fight are utterly devastating.

Sure that initial cannon rapid fire is impressive... but frankly it's not what's going to get the kills. What really drives home the point for the Cannon User is the cruiser with beams near by or the sci ship stripping the buffs right off the enemy vessel, eroding away at enemy heals, and shields, to the point that the Cannon User can drive home the speartip and finish the job.

Impulse Speed. If the Escort is running away, then he's not a threat for at least 30 seconds that's more than enough time to acquire a new target and kill it before the Escort who, in all likely hood if he's running away is in a Horrible Team anyway or is a Horrible Pilot. If you are in a Cruiser running away, You are Doing It Wrong. Or your team mates are.

Tac Team, said as if Cruisers can't mount a copy or two themselves....

Don't even get me started on the types of ships that can mount them. Cruisers are flatout Better ships right now in pvp than even the most lethal of escorts. They can pound out the DPS, and Pound out the heals in equal measure, while the joykiller in the sci ship next to you vapes the entire oppositions, buffs, and his teams shields all in one go while slamming out torp volleys.

Let's see, Cruisers get, access to RSP, ASIF2 or 3, Extend Shields 2 and 3, ET3, ET2, Warp Plasma, DEM3.
The best heals and tank powers in the game hands down and in a post Maco environment a very useful damage power and control power. While simultaneously they can still pound DPS out with EPTw1 cranked while running max shields and weapon power. Oh and if they want to, they can run aux to damp and keep pace with Sci Ships in combat turn rate wise, and become immune to stuns, and repels while not sacrificing -anything-.

Furthermore Cruisers can also get access to pretty high Defense Scores too. (I believe two of mine are sitting Fedside at 70-85 percent in that range)


Oh noes Escorts can live for more than five seconds to beams! Yes... so OP alright.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
01-24-2012, 12:00 PM
Quote:
Cannons: I don't see it just on escorts/BoPs but on cruisers that can use cannons to (most klingon cruisers) I refer to the big ones, dual heavy and dual. The mechanic is completely out of the way. The weaponenergy-drain is kicking in AFTER all shots are fired of, so there is no downside by using multiple exemplars. While a beamboat has to deal with heavy weaponpower-drain, cannons just fire at maximum performance the most time. Cannon-users dont have to bother with things like EP2W thus have more room free for other useful skills.
You also can't cycle more than 3 maximum on a build due to CD issues that will make the 4th cannon not fire-ever.
Cannons also lose levels of effectiveness beyong a range of 5km ingame and thier damage drops off drastically.
They have a 90 degree to 45 degree firing arc, thus being less effective as your target wiggles around and makes itself difficult to attack. Not an issue for beam boats with the overlapping 270 degree firing arc and excellent damage at a farther 5km range.
As well cannons can not use the Death Spiral exploit to shoot a target above or below them at very tight angles. Another thing only Beam can do.
To the EPTW use, escorts may not use this due to running with high weapon power at all times, but cruisers do use EPTW to compensate for the need for high shielding as you can cycle 2 EPTS and 1 EPTW at a near constant rate.

Quote:
Impulsespeed-modifier: Yes, you can get away with a cruiser or a science ship, but only to get caught again after seconds because escorts/BoPs are just way faster. Escorts however can get away roughly all the time. Dont even try to chase an escort with a cruiser. You cant. There is no ****ing way to catch up with an escort if the escort-user knows what hes doing ( its not that hard to divert all powers to engines ).
No vessel gets speed modifiers (ei: +xx to engines) speed is set to whatever the design of the vessel is and buffed by skills and equipment.
Escorts are fast smaller ships, more agile than a cruiser or science vessel by design.
And yes, any cruiser or science vessel can be just as fast in the use "of knowing what to do" to escape or chase someone.
Seen many a science vessel or cruiser pop a Engine batt, dueterium , EVM and/or switch all power to engines to chase down BoPS.

Quote:
Equipment: Things like the borg-set are just ruining the game. Never was a big fan of procs and things, that depend on chance/luck. See that ship going down? Oh my - borg-proc set in. Hes at 100% in seconds, and you cant do anything about it. Its just like pushing a reset button - extremely annoying.
Can't disagree here. The adventy of the next best "thing" in equipment is always unbalnced it seems. For example teh MACO shields making even escorts tough as Cruisers.

Quote:
Tac-team: Its simply a must-have. You will die most of the time without it. Its one of the big reasons, why everyone is tanking like hell. I can remember past times, when maneuvering to get your weak shield away from your opponent and manuel shield distribution were a key element to success. Now you just press a button and everythings fine. To be honest, things like EP2S wouldnt do much without tac-team.[/color]
Yep, another well known issue that has yet to be resolved by the Devs. Much like Science team is the cure-all now it seems and one must keep it in a build to survive.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
01-24-2012, 12:05 PM
The thing many forget is their is standalone piece of software that has been rumored to change things. Voldermort was bad this little piece of software makes voldermort look like a 1st grade science project. You allegedly can change crit chance/severity/proc chance/energy levels etc. Imagine that swing in the balance of power.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
01-24-2012, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
You also can't cycle more than 3 maximum on a build due to CD issues that will make the 4th cannon not fire-ever.
Cannons also lose levels of effectiveness beyong a range of 5km ingame and thier damage drops off drastically.
They have a 90 degree to 45 degree firing arc, thus being less effective as your target wiggles around and makes itself difficult to attack. Not an issue for beam boats with the overlapping 270 degree firing arc and excellent damage at a farther 5km range.
As well cannons can not use the Death Spiral exploit to shoot a target above or below them at very tight angles. Another thing only Beam can do.
To the EPTW use, escorts may not use this due to running with high weapon power at all times, but cruisers do use EPTW to compensate for the need for high shielding as you can cycle 2 EPTS and 1 EPTW at a near constant rate.
Its all situational. Ever tried to chase down a running opponent with a beamboat while just 4 beams are hitting your running target? From my experience its much easier with cannons, cause you can focus them all to the target. I also know the degree-problem. When i'm confronted with more than one "wtf-dmg" opponent, i exploit the degree-weakness as well by flying cicles up/down, but only because i cant stand to the massive damageoutput of 2 cannonusers.
I for one encountered a klingon cannon cruiser once in kerrat. His wrecking damageoutput was just surpassed by his unbelieveable tankability. Without tac-team i would have died in seconds. With tac-team running, he was about to drain my shields constantly, altough i used EP2S2 and RSF. When i started to cicle him, he couldnt do much about it because of his limited firing-arcs. Was running a 8 beam-boat that time, but couldnt even penetrate his shields in close combat( stayed at 80-90% all the time). Asked him after that how he managed to tank that good. Answer: 2 x rsp, 2 EP2S3, borg-set, klingon-honor-guard shield (something with defense on it and the highest cap i've ever saw)and 3 shield distribution DoFFs.

Dont get me wrong. I dont wanna judge DoFFs in general, altough i hate the chance/luck thing as stated before, but to give an ability which can be used every minute for 15 seconds an incredible amount of regeneration is just dumb. To make the DoFFs so rare, that just a couple of players can get them is even dumber. Just like all the abilitys that can only be found on some extreme unique BOs. Thats bothering me since STO went live. Its just unfair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
No vessel gets speed modifiers (ei: +xx to engines) speed is set to whatever the design of the vessel is and buffed by skills and equipment.
Escorts are fast smaller ships, more agile than a cruiser or science vessel by design.
And yes, any cruiser or science vessel can be just as fast in the use "of knowing what to do" to escape or chase someone.
Seen many a science vessel or cruiser pop a Engine batt, dueterium , EVM and/or switch all power to engines to chase down BoPS.
Hmm. Actually there is impulsemodifier for every ship. I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. Escorts/BoPs usually have a mod of 0.20, while cruisers and scienceships have 0.15. The bug ship - surprise - has 0.22. Who would have thought it?
Therefore an escort/BoP is always faster than a cruiser/scienceschip with the same powersetting in engines. Some escorts are even as fast or faster with 50 powersetting to engines than a cruiser with 100 powersetting to it. Tried it out already.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
01-24-2012, 01:37 PM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadePartizan View Post
Its all situational. Its just unfair.
No, its called experience and knowing how things work in PvP.
Those 4 beams are only shooting the one target in front of you and do better damage at a longer range than those cannons.
Been chased down by many a Beam boat and died for not being prepared for it because they didn;t just try to shoot me, but also hit me with a CC ability or nullified my damage all together or my favorite TB'ed me then shot me to death.
Experience is the factor. Knowing what to do and when to do it. Many a beam boat has tried to chase me and died for teh effort of just flying in behind me and doing nothing but shoot.

Quote:
Hmm. Actually there is impulsemodifier for every ship.
No ship has a bonus to speed.
What that is is the stat for that particular ship and some ships are slower than others in there base speed stats, escorts being at the top, science in the middle and cruisers at the bottom.
This difference is speed is overcome by using the proper abilities or items to boost it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
01-24-2012, 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
No, its called experience and knowing how things work in PvP.
Those 4 beams are only shooting the one target in front of you and do better damage at a longer range than those cannons.
Been chased down by many a Beam boat and died for not being prepared for it because they didn;t just try to shoot me, but also hit me with a CC ability or nullified my damage all together or my favorite TB'ed me then shot me to death.
Experience is the factor. Knowing what to do and when to do it. Many a beam boat has tried to chase me and died for teh effort of just flying in behind me and doing nothing but shoot.
"Its just unfair" was refered to the fact, that some abilitys can be just afforded by either some lucky devil finding a BO in the exchange for a low price/get one while lvling or by a rich player who can simply throw out couple of million ECs out of the window to buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
No ship has a bonus to speed.
What that is is the stat for that particular ship and some ships are slower than others in there base speed stats, escorts being at the top, science in the middle and cruisers at the bottom.
This difference is speed is overcome by using the proper abilities or items to boost it.
If just looked at the pure speed without any ability or consumable, escorts/bops will always be much faster/get away from cruisers/sci-ships. even if an ability is used: i would guess, that every escort has at least 1 APO to negate it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
01-24-2012, 02:35 PM
To be fair it is a pain to kill some escort pilots. It sometimes requires unconventional methods to kill such pilots.
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