Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
01-27-2012, 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HF_Mudd
Captain Brown:
Is "survivability" actually at all relevant in the game as it currently exists? Vexiom's first post on this thread seems to say it is not. Would you care to address those points?
Its highly relevant. Not to step on Vexiom's ego or anything but if its all about the escort for him in elite stfs perhaps expanding horizons would help a bit. My fleet runs elites we get the optional and we don't have to stack a bunch of high dps escorts. Having a ship that can run disables such as a science (we get a karfi friend with is sometimes this helps even more as it can disable and dps at the same time) and a cruiser that can take the damage to play center of attention makes a big difference in the flow of the battle.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
01-27-2012, 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alendiak
Heck, even the Jem'hadar escort has 4 engineering consoles.

The stats are fine. It's really an uber star cruiser at the end of the day, not an uber assault cruiser like some people want it to be. It's designed to be the ultra tank cruiser, to the Bortas ultra DPS cruiser.

As a PvPer who prefers to be a damage dealer then a healer, it's not my kind of ship. It should be useful for PvE and normal STF though damage wise if you use the lt cmdr universal slot for a tact.
My goodness people act like eptw doesnt exist. put that free purp boff in pop wep battery for +10 percent damage pop atpA gdf pepsi and melt things battery goes off eptw keep melting things.

This is sorta like a slap in the face to some of the "elite" pvpers who i see just melting peoples faces off with less.

Otherwise I wouldnt mind another science console slot. Dont take anything away just give me another one. I like my tss3 instantly refilling escorts shield.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
01-27-2012, 05:56 PM
Oh, found out the actual model you get is a Galaxy-class, not of Sovereign. Oh well.

* * *

The turn rate is pretty appalling, yeah.

It defaults at 6 degrees per second. On a empty-engineering slot, Mk X impulse engine with minimum engine power but +100 skill bonuses for impulse drives, engine power, warp core potential and warp core performance (end result: Engine power 50/25)... the turn rate improves to 8.7 degrees per second (not exactly a nice return on the skill point investment).

Slapping Mk 11 RCS consoles (+35% turn rate) increases this to 9.7, then 10.8, then 11.8, and finally 12.9 degrees per second. Boosting engine power to maximum (114/100) ups that to 14.8 degrees per second. Full Impulse manages 15.1 degrees per second.

So, baring the addition of a better impulse drive, shoving all the skill points possible in mobility and filling all the engineering slots with RCS thrusters the best you can get with passive bonuses as far as the Odyssey's turn rate goes with everything possible devoted to it is 15 degree per second. Active powers like Evasive Maneuvers - assuming you maintain that optimum status - can up the turn rate briefly to 29.6 degrees per second.

It stands to say that +35% of not all that much equals... not all that much.

For my part, I hoped for more. I hoped for better. I really can't relate with Al Rivera's statement that the low turn reinforces the massiveness of the ship - I'd have rather seen the Odyssey swim the sea of space slowly but gracefully than at what this is: a snail's pace. I don't believe the turn rate matched the flow of the elongated vessel I've seen in the screenshots. If look and feel is the excuse for the low turn-rate... I'm calling foul. That viewpoint is reinforced by other massive ships like the Negh'var getting away with a turn rate as high as 9.

* * *

I'll add my piece about the Odyssey's bridge. It's nice that they made a placeholder at all it's certainly a step up from the Star Cruiser bridges I've seen before (not a huge fan of those). I can also see the resemblance to the Perpetual bridge concept art. But. I'm still disappointed.

I expected something that looked more... I'll use the word 'handcrafted'. I expected new geometry being done to make it look unique rather than a set reuse. I expected it to be more slick looking, kind of like the concept art. I also feel for its slightly drab look - the 'new' Intrepid bridges pack introduced stations with holographic displays just like on the PE concept art and I was hoping to see more of this as well.

I was hoping to see a bridge that would blow me away, leaving me once again in awe of Cryptic's environment artists. But this isn't it. I would encourage, if the team can ever manage it, to create a ship bundle that will provide a redo of said bridge. I would definitely pay for it.

* * *

I haven't tested the ship in combat, as I don't have adequate Boffs for it on Tribble... but this feels mostly analogous to the Dreadnought Cruiser I've played on Holodeck. On Holodeck, I lose missions like Salvage Rescue because I can't turn to better protect myself while engaging the enemy. I don't see how the Odyssey, placed in the same situation, will do all that much better than when I handle the Dreadnought Cruiser. Which is unfortunate.

Which would reinforce a point of view I share with dontdrunkimshoot: the lower threshold chosen for turn rate is an extreme that's too low for enjoyment in my opinion. It really sours my experience. Cruisers were more fun to play at lower ranks (not saying I want to fly escorts to turn, dammit. I'm pointing to lower level cruisers... which higher level cruisers should feel better, not worse!). I think it's a very bad design decision to have decided to make them like this.

I'm not concerned about the tactical console/science console debate. I think the flaw is in the way science powers have been treated by Cryptic in the first place... as I felt science powers were entitled to all the potential they had back when the game launched - even when I was a victim to them. After that, science powers (and the science ships based on them) were greatly watered down and that aspect of your game has been damaged ever since. I think it was fine that auxiliary power was not the determinant for all the science powers, that viral matrix deserved the oomph it had, and that the fragile status of jam sensors greatly diminished its utility. After the above, I can't blame people for griping about the science console slots.

I don't think science analysis is much of a way to fix the perceived problem either. I hear talk about not superceeding another ship's role and the likely solution is to borrow an ability exclusive to science vessels? I don't have a better idea, but I think it's a bit lame. How would sensor analysis reflect in actual use for this ship? What's sensor analysis supposed to exactly convey: that she's an exploration vessel with science gear?

I maintain that one angle not covered and that's pretty profession neutral is mobility, since an exploration vessel travels. A +15 engine, +5 shield would be unique, suit all classes and not shunt the ship toward healboat gameplay more than anywhere else. And it'd help it move and get in places. As it, the ship probably feels more agile in sector space than system space.

I don't think I'm going to enjoy the Enterprise's new ship class much. I wasn't looking for a everything-is-win ship in it - just something that would be well suited for STO. I don't think this is it - I think it should've edged more toward the Excelsior retrofit than the Star Cruiser (especially given that the T5 Excelsior makes no sense at all next to the Sovereign, whereas it would've been convincing for the Odyssey). I think the worry of superceeding other ships is hypocritical when it clearly stomps over the Star Cruiser's backyard.

I don't think the ship has shown thus far, with unveiled intentions for it, that it lived up to its hype (contrary to the relative success of the Klingon flagship). I would've liked to admire it more... but that's not the cards you played. I'm baffled as it why you gave her such poor synergy with your game, why you're spoiling such a good opportunity to design it right - it just could've been so good done from a different outlook and hit most of the high marks, just like the bortaS did without copying it and trying to be its own novel thing.

I'm not a game designer, so I may not know any better. All I can say is based on what gives me enjoyment and fun-factor. I won't make any claim as to how designers should do their jobs... but in this case I'm utterly unable to understand why you made her this way.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
01-27-2012, 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexiom
This is good a concept, and may even be true when it comes to PvP. However, in STFs, being a tank is generally not much help to your team - especially in normal mode. As I have said and personally experienced - in normal mode STFs, a competent escort can tank just as well as cruiser, while being far more maneuverable and doing far more damage. And what is worse is that the STFs appear to be balanced around that level of performance.

So, if this ship is to be an asset in STFs instead of a detriment, either the ship has to change or the way STFs are designed has to change. I suspect it is too late for the later, so here we are. Once these things are released, they are going to be used in droves, not because they are or are not good, but because they are new, and free, and "the enterprise." So, it would be really nice if they were at were capable of at least a passable level of performance while doing STFs.

To get there, the Odyssey needs... something. Maybe another Tac console. Maybe sensor analysis. Maybe something else. But at the listed stats it is just another space whale in a fancy costume. I'm really sorry, but that is the truth.
Being a tank in an STF is a great asset if you know how to use it. I am sorry if you've not had a good experience in that department but that's the truth. As the Odyssey stands now its performance capability's for elite STF's are great with the proper tank spec's and gear.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
01-27-2012, 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain Brown
Its highly relevant. Not to step on Vexiom's ego or anything but if its all about the escort for him in elite stfs perhaps expanding horizons would help a bit. My fleet runs elites we get the optional and we don't have to stack a bunch of high dps escorts. Having a ship that can run disables such as a science (we get a karfi friend with is sometimes this helps even more as it can disable and dps at the same time) and a cruiser that can take the damage to play center of attention makes a big difference in the flow of the battle.
It is true that Science ships are key in elite STFs for power drains and control abilities. However, it is not true that cruisers are required to take the big hits. I know this because until the last day or so threat abilities have been completely broken in the game, meaning that those big hits have been going to whomever is doing the most damage - and this is definitely not a cruiser. I know cruiser pilots don't want to hear that cruisers are, in general, kinda bad at STFs, but you can't live in denial forever.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
01-27-2012, 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain Brown
Being a tank in an STF is a great asset if you know how to use it. I am sorry if you've not had a good experience in that department but that's the truth. As the Odyssey stands now its performance capability's for elite STF's are great with the proper tank spec's and gear.
Perhaps you could explain how you have "been a tank" in STFs when threat abilities have been broken? If the enemy is mostly ignoring you, what are you tanking?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
01-27-2012, 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexiom
It is true that Science ships are key in elite STFs for power drains and control abilities. However, it is not true that cruisers are required to take the big hits. I know this because until the last day or so threat abilities have been completely broken in the game, meaning that those big hits have been going to whomever is doing the most damage - and this is definitely not a cruiser. I know cruiser pilots don't want to hear that cruisers are, in generally, kinda bad at STFs, but you can't live in denial forever.
Its true until the past few days maneuvering so that you take the big hits has been something of a challenge threat control has made that easier. But it was far from impossible before threat control. Sorry to disappoint you but cruisers do well in STFS if you know how to use them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38 It is odd
01-27-2012, 06:06 PM
It's odd that the Negh'var can be so massive with room for thousands of crew and has a turn rate of 9. That means it's possible to have a large cruiser be able to turn too. For some reason KDF Battlecruisers get turn rate, cloak, cannons, and massive hulls all at once, while we argue about whether the Fed equivalent can have a 3rd tac console like every KDF battlecruiser has prety much.

That said, when the Bortas gets a 4th tac console and cloak it seems superior to the Oddyssey in every way that matters. The Oddyssey needs some help in the damage department or it's a niche ship for healing in team pvp only. Even the Galaxy retrofit can turn once its saucer is removed, and I rarely die for the lack of hull using it.

The Star cruiser is the least used of the cruiser ships in the game. The flagship of the Federation ought not be based on it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
01-27-2012, 06:08 PM
When I hit faw everything shoots at me and I shoot at everything. I should add I live, and manage to toss heals to "subpar" teammates.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
01-27-2012, 06:09 PM
Well two things I'm concerned about:
The Ensign universal should imho be a Lt Universal, with an Ensign Tac station.
But well I can't get everything I want.

well since this bridge is probably not a placeholder but the ships actual bridge, some feedback to it.
(I got this assumption by the Engineering consoles next to the turbolift doors depicting the Odyssey, so sorry if I'm wrong)

About the Bridge:

+ First officer seat
+ Counselor seat
+ Ceiling window

- too big
- Counselor and first officer seats don't have consoles next to them
- blue Lcars
- seats

ad ceiling window:
Finally a ceiling window! great!

ad...
Too big:
I understand that you want to show that this ship is huge. but people were already complaining about the other bridges being too big. It is not even the bridges height that bothers me but its radius.
The captain would really have to shout to reach some of his officer's ears.
The radius says 'starbase' to me, not 'huge ship' .
Maybe something in the size of those old t5 bridges would be more appropriate

Counselor and first officer with no consoles:
Well both of them should get a console to their left or right or a movable one like they had on the enterprise E
I also don't particularly like the captain consoles, but those are tied to the seat problem.

Blue LCARS:
Honestly, aside from the chairs and radius the bridge doesn't look that bad, but this blue atmosphere is, with one word, tiring. Iím not joking here. Blue wherever I look.
blue is a pretty calming color, and together with the low amount of (cold BLUE) light it will probably make people tired.
Another thing is that people have already asked you guys several times to add proper yellow LCARS, what you even did on some maps. So I don't know why its back now.
But please. If you don't fix anything else - please change make the room brighter, and please not brighter cold-blue, but a friendlier tone. (Maybe a warm-white tone?)

Chairs:
Might be personal preference, but I really dislike these chairs.
I would like to see the chairs from the Sovereign bridge added there instead of the current ones; Another Issue connected to the chairs is that some BOFFs are sitting in the air, while another boff stands where he could take one of these (many) empty chairs.
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