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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
01-27-2012, 05:59 PM
To me it's more of a stacking problem. 1 sci + 4 escorts is a LOT better than 4 scis + 1 escort. Otherwise I don't really see a problem. A science ship with right set of skills can make that elite tactical cube a lot faster to take down.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
01-27-2012, 07:52 PM
In terms of damage capability, science ships lack the firepower. 3 fore, 3 aft just doesn't cut it. And they don't run enough tactical console slots. So they are behind the curve.

They're playable, especially in PvE. And yeah, you can do all sorts of cool stuff with them. But they do lack the firepower of cruisers and escorts.
Lt. Commander
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# 23
01-27-2012, 08:33 PM
I don't think that Science ships were ever meant for pure DPS. If they were, it would probably be overpowered since Sci powers are already devastating when used correctly. Cruisers aren't exactly a huge DPS monster either, but something has to compensate for the lack of mobility.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 24
01-27-2012, 08:47 PM
Science Vessels do have less DPS, but they do have the passive "Sensor Scan" which makes whatever they're targeting take progressively more damage - however, they must keep it targeted to keep the buff going. Still, they are by no means weak. They just don't fly like a Cruiser, or an Escort.

Heck, I seem to kill things SLOWEST in Escorts. Maybe just because I have a hard time keeping things in the front arc long enough to kill it, or they blast through the shields and then my puny hull in seconds... *ramble*
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
01-27-2012, 08:58 PM
My sci toon disagrees with you. I amp the aux all the way on my NEb' and use offensive Boff powers like Tykens Rift II and Gravity Well III to a A LOT of damage, while science team and transfer shield strength/hazard emmitters for support (myself and others), in a team, the science ships are VERY important and given the opportunity , dangerous. I prefer the Nebula or the Trident classes, they do an excellent job, six weapons slots and two tac consoles or not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
01-28-2012, 03:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
My sci toon disagrees with you. I amp the aux all the way on my NEb' and use offensive Boff powers like Tykens Rift II and Gravity Well III to a A LOT of damage, while science team and transfer shield strength/hazard emmitters for support (myself and others), in a team, the science ships are VERY important and given the opportunity , dangerous. I prefer the Nebula or the Trident classes, they do an excellent job, six weapons slots and two tac consoles or not.
Highest gravity well I've managed was around 1,800 per second for 20 seconds, or 36,000 max damage assuming they remain in the center and have no resists, with a one minute cooldown.

Rapid Fire bumps my 3rd DHC up to around 1,500 dps without using other buffs, with a 30 second cooldown, and said cannon is still firing while the skill is on cooldown. Nor does that take into account my extra tac console's effect on overall DPS.


@krisslanza: try running tac team and using it when your shield begins to get low along with an E power to shields at the start of the fight. To keep them in place use either a tractor beam or beam: Target Engines. Worst case go full reverse to keep them under your guns for a few seconds using evasive maneuvers/attack pattern omega if you need to pull of a 360.

Look, I'm not saying Sci vessels are horrible pieces of garbage or that they are not fun or viable. I am simply stating this game is about DPS and sci vessels cannot compete with escorts in that department or even a well built cruiser. I also disagree that the utility they posses makes up for it. I still fly two Sci ships with one of my toons, it just frustrates me that it takes nearly twice as long to do the missions with them compared to if I put her in an escort. The only ability a science ship exclusively has are confuses everything else can be done by other boffs. As far as tanking goes HE 1 or 2 is enough to survive. Need shield stripping, BA: Target Shields. Enemy DPS got you down? BA: Target Weapons or Aecon Beam. Need a disable? Boarding Parties. Need to clear the trash mobs? Scatter Volley + Torp Spread. etc..

It is the way the science ships/powers were designed is flawed. Starting with the lack of passive always active bonuses with the science skills to the consoles that boost them and ending with the lack of scaling on the powers. If I get a better cannon all my tac boff abilities just got stronger, my skills are having a stronger effect etc. Science skill damage, on the other hand, does not scale with any equipment to the same degree nor does anything scale with the skills aside from the boff powers themselves. When I can get a higher damage total out of a rank 1 gravity well in an escort than I can out of a rank 3 in a science ship something IS NOT RIGHT!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
01-28-2012, 08:28 AM
A Science ship isn't the same as an Escort or even a Cruiser so it's unreasonable to expect them to act the same way. Fly the ship that suits your style. Build the ship that works for you. Science powers are actually incredibly potent if you build it and use it right. In PvP, the skills available to Science ships are incredible for creating opportunities or exploiting a weakness. If this wasn't an MMO then I might feel bad for a solo scientist but there are plenty of people online. Team up, perfect a build, and unleash the mad scientist within!

Science consoles are underwhelming but that's got more to do with Science powers themselves being incredibly strong with just Aux power. If they brought the potency down a bit and then boosted the consoles they could fix this but I digress.

Also, while there are lots of reasons to pick a specific ship, don't discount the impact that iconic ships have on the decision making process.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
01-28-2012, 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
=Look, I'm not saying Sci vessels are horrible pieces of garbage or that they are not fun or viable. I am simply stating this game is about DPS and sci vessels cannot compete with escorts in that department or even a well built cruiser. I also disagree that the utility they posses makes up for it. I still fly two Sci ships with one of my toons, it just frustrates me that it takes nearly twice as long to do the missions with them compared to if I put her in an escort. The only ability a science ship exclusively has are confuses everything else can be done by other boffs. As far as tanking goes HE 1 or 2 is enough to survive. Need shield stripping, BA: Target Shields. Enemy DPS got you down? BA: Target Weapons or Aecon Beam. Need a disable? Boarding Parties. Need to clear the trash mobs? Scatter Volley + Torp Spread. etc..

It is the way the science ships/powers were designed is flawed. Starting with the lack of passive always active bonuses with the science skills to the consoles that boost them and ending with the lack of scaling on the powers. If I get a better cannon all my tac boff abilities just got stronger, my skills are having a stronger effect etc. Science skill damage, on the other hand, does not scale with any equipment to the same degree nor does anything scale with the skills aside from the boff powers themselves. When I can get a higher damage total out of a rank 1 gravity well in an escort than I can out of a rank 3 in a science ship something IS NOT RIGHT!
Science ships are best at using Target Subsystems, in case you did not know this already. Gravity Well is damaging but that is not its main function nor is it the main function of Tyken's. The loss of some top Science skills (disables and E-War) to higher tier skills with the split pool does hurt Science Ships as I said. The fact that Tyken's is bugged also hurts.


A Federation Cruiser outside of the Dreadnaught would have a hard time really out killing a Science Vessel flown with any skill.


You seem to be asking a Science ship to try to be a blunt instrument when it is not. It is a scalpel that attacks with E-War not with sheer damage. In PvE a good Tyken's III can render enemy ships absolutely helpless. (If they fix its bug it may be able to do it in PvP again.) Gravity Well can suck enemies all into a big cluster and as they blow up their own friends will kill them with their core breaches. Tachyon Beam and Particle Burst annihilate shields giving a clear shot to the hull. Tractor Beams and Gravity Well stop enemies from moving which often leads to their death. Scramble Sensors and Viral Matrix throw monkey wrenches into well laid plans making the enemy all but crippled until the effects resolve. (Boarding Party is still easily avoided and cleared) Photonic Shockwave can be a nasty blast against the bare hull of an enemy.

In one-on-one PvP a Science Ship can be absolutely NIGHTMARISH to compete with because it will leave you so disable and unable to fight back that it will be all one-sided. In group PvP they are the ultimate crowbar to get inside enemy defenses and let your team win. They drop shields, immobilize enemies, shut enemies right down while the Escorts zip in to finish them off. Nothing is worse in group PvP then being the whipping boy of a Science Ship piloted by a competent pilot because the SECOND you are vulnerable his friend in an Escort will rip you apart.


So in conclusion: Yes, the Science skills have gotten nerfed and could use more fine tuning to keep them competitive but used correctly Science Ships are quite a vicious tool and certainly very worthwhile.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
01-28-2012, 07:58 PM
I understand the strengths of the science vessel and the tools they have. In PvP I will admit a lack of knowledge but I'm looking at it completely from a PvE perspective.

In STFs I run an Intrepid with 5 polaron beam arrays and 1 chrono torpedo laucher(emergency hold with High Yield). I have two boffs I swap out depending on the role I need to fill, either tekkon's rift 3 and energy siphon or gravity well 3 with scramble sensors 2 (other skills are standard). Against the big mobs I typically shred shield power to the point where they are down for a bit, but other than the tac cube in Infected(?) that does not help complete the optional. The gravity well / scramble combo is powerful, but not as powerful as scatter volley + torpedo spread is against the clustered enemies which just strait up kills them. Now if my group isn't very good I have a very hard time picking up the slack. On the other hand both my eng/cruiser captain and my tac/escort captain can pick up the slack from a bad group to pour out the damage needed to win. I'm not that great and my cruiser can solo one side/cube of the cure in about 5-6 minutes, and in KA about 10 minutes, escort is even faster. This is not me bragging at all, its just the way it is for me. When I fly my dailies the difference in killing ability is even greater.

Perhaps by design Sci ships are not meant to be powerful in PvE, or non Elite PvE, ie a blunt instrument. Perhaps I'm using terrible ships/builds and I would love to hear what works well for you guys (in PvE) so I can give it a try.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
01-28-2012, 08:37 PM
Allow me to pose a different comparison. Name very skill in the skill tree that are situational in use, meaning they are not passive bonuses that are always 'on'. Stealth, Attack Patterns, Batteries, and Driver Coil, oh and nearly the entire science branch.

Now, name every boff ability that deals damage yet does not scale with equipment. Eject Warp Plasma, Directed Energy Modulation, Aceton Beam, and all science damage abilities.

When you use beam overload its damage scales with your weapons, skills, and consoles. And on that note the above engineering skills need scaling as well. This will only be exaggerated if/when the level cap is raised.

The damage of these abilities needs to scale with equipment. Obviously scaling all of the effects would be a bad idea, a 5 second disable is a 5 second disable regardless of level, but the damage does. That is my only issue.
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