Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 861
01-31-2012, 01:29 AM
No... I was openly trying to point out that a previous poster seemed WAYYYYY to pi*sed about his statement using a ironio...


Oh... yea... sarcasm... you are right
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 862
01-31-2012, 02:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
The nature of today's mmoer is to play for 30 days and leave and hopefully come back later when all the bugs and features have been ironed out, whilst your core base still plays. the hope is that the game grows and your fan base does too. That is what happened even with the mighty wow.
I think "come back later" is very optimistic for an MMO in 2012. GW2, planetside, ?Tera? will all be the 'new best thing' shortly.

WoW had the advantage of being a far better game than anything around at launch, just buggy. But everyone knew 'WoW = best MMO' and it remained that way for a very long time. SWTOR isn't in that category really (I like the game, but it has a definite 'lifetime' for a player).

Having said that, the population stats for TOR are impressive - the expected drop-off is a lot less than expected... it might confound everyone and remain at a high population for quite some time.

I also think a possible wild-card is a console port to the upcoming new consoles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
Problem for STO is people didn't even last the 30 days and Cryptics reputation proceeded them.
Yep - lack of content coupled with CO (which failed due to a lack content) and a general reputation for being 'financially motivated' really didn't help STO .

As everyone's been trashing STO, it's worth defending the game:

- Star Trek is a nightmare for an MMO developer. In 2012 you can see how a good Trek MMO could be built, but it's not a traditional MMO and unlike BW you couldn't just licence MMO-engine#3 to build it. I don't honestly believe any MMO developer handed the ST licence would have done a better job - most would have cancelled the project or released a 'Star Trek themed WoW'.

- STO development after release has been spectacular. Despite fears to the contrary they have fixed an awful lot of stuff... Enough? No, but that's more to do with the poor state at release than any lack of work from the devs.

- whilst STO remained P2P the devs kept their promise regarding the C-Store. It wasn't a source of great evil, even if the original intent was.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 863
01-31-2012, 02:13 AM
Im sure if STO had stayed a sub model it would have done just fine. You only have to see the huge number of people that played during cloaked intentions to know that if you deliver content, the people will show up. couple that with things like the grab bag that occured while it was still a sub only model shows this game can make money.

however, f2p has proven to be massively successful in almost every game that has done it, so i can understand why any company, especially when your parent company now specialises in f2p games would want to do that.

converting to f2p is a lengthy process and takes longer than most people would think. STO also has some rough areas that needed fixing so you sacrifice 6-8 months with next to nothing, in the hopes that the next 5 years will be even more profitable. its forward planning. it does not mean that sto would fail without going f2p.

if they had not gone f2p, they could have spent those resources making more missions. perhaps we would have had 4 FE series last year and people here would be happy, but they would probably make less money each year than if they sacrifice some time, go f2p and then let everybody play. its is of course reliant on having a good cash shop, which i think sto does. its rammed full of goodies people would want in ships and costumes.

f2p still has this tag of only happening to games that are about to die. it is simply not the case any more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 864
01-31-2012, 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
You may want to take off your owne rose colored glasses regarding TOR's overall performance in the subscriptuion retention area as:

From this MSNBC article (link):



And an LA Times article (link) stating:



and



And a Massively Article (link) that seems to back up the LA Times article SWToR cost nmbers and stating analysts projections caused an EA stock rebound of 2% and:



But again - doing the math 800K is 200K short of 1 million; and even though some analysts are claiming 75 - 90% of players will be retained - I'd say that's very optomistic given what most other MMOs have experienced; but time will tell.
Er, sorry but once again, where does it say it hasn't met it's own expectations? You haven't provided anything that says what they have sold and what retention they have? All you gave put in is stuff that is old news and doesn't reflect (yet) what the real figures are.

Oh and I see you skipped over the bit about STO going F2P.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 865
01-31-2012, 04:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Revo
Im sure if STO had stayed a sub model it would have done just fine. You only have to see the huge number of people that played during cloaked intentions to know that if you deliver content, the people will show up. couple that with things like the grab bag that occured while it was still a sub only model shows this game can make money.

.
You see, i don't agree with this and the reason why is that most of these people who turn up for F/E are lifers. Did tons of people resub just for FE and then leave again? Probably some did but not many I wager.

That was one of the main problems with STO, it sold too many lifetime subs.

How can you say this game was doing fine? No cups? No new content?

Shesh, the evidence for STO has been there for over a year that the game was sinking and F2P was the "only" option for it to survive. Not sure why the defenders still cannot see this and suggest all would have been fine and that F2P was only so they could make even more money.

F2P still has a tag of failure, with only LOTR being one of those games that was successful but could get even more revenue going F2P.

Champs on line - Failure. Okay now?
DDO - Failure. Okay now?
DCUO - Failure. Okay now?
STO - Failure. ?
*** - Failure. I think it's doing fine?

Plenty of others, so nope F2P doesn't necessarily mean rubbish, but it definately doesn't mean success.

Remember a lot of people myself included, play F2P games because they are free but don't necessarily buy anything and also we can leave the game whenever we want, because we don't have the subscription fee compelling us to play.

Lots are playing STO now and in 6 months, I am sure we will have a feeling whether it's being successful or not. Successful means people buying things, not people just playing the game for free...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 866
01-31-2012, 04:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
You see, i don't agree with this and the reason why is that most of these people who turn up for F/E are lifers. Did tons of people resub just for FE and then leave again? Probably some did but not many I wager.
Actually, most of thoose who were active in my fleet during the FE's were resubbers who came back just for thoose... Not lifers...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 867
01-31-2012, 04:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
You see, i don't agree with this and the reason why is that most of these people who turn up for F/E are lifers. Did tons of people resub just for FE and then leave again? Probably some did but not many I wager.

That was one of the main problems with STO, it sold too many lifetime subs.

How can you say this game was doing fine? No cups? No new content?

Shesh, the evidence for STO has been there for over a year that the game was sinking and F2P was the "only" option for it to survive. Not sure why the defenders still cannot see this and suggest all would have been fine and that F2P was only so they could make even more money.
we have no idea how many are subbers, lifers or who bought what in the store.

at the point of cloaked intention which was when they were starting to think about f2p we had had the breen series in august/september, the devidian series in october/november, season 3 in december, the anniversary event in feb and cloaked intention in feb/march, and the foundry in march/ april. at that point there was no content drought, there were less problems, most people were very happy and optimistic. at that point nothing was failing and the game was growing by what the devs told us. was it a runway success? no probably not but it was doing fine. Fine as it ok. acceptable. good enough.

if they had kept making missions and not bothered with f2p conversion, there would have been no content drought and the game would have gone on and it may have grown or may have held its place but it would have gone on.

i dont know the exact financial situation but in my opinion yes the game would be here and it would be doing fine if it was still a sub model. the conversion to f2p has hurt the game in the short term but if it had never happened we would never have had to go through that.

i have seen nothing to contradict that. i dont consider myself a defender or a fanboi or what ever else you probably think i am because i happen to have that viewpoint. there is no evidence that the game was close to failing. there is no evidence that it was not either. i only have my opinion and in mine it was fine and would have remained fine as a sub model. we will probably never know who is right.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 868
01-31-2012, 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Revo
we have no idea how many are subbers, lifers or who bought what in the store.

at the point of cloaked intention which was when they were starting to think about f2p we had had the breen series in august/september, the devidian series in october/november, season 3 in december, the anniversary event in feb and cloaked intention in feb/march, and the foundry in march/ april. at that point there was no content drought, there were less problems, most people were very happy and optimistic. at that point nothing was failing and the game was growing by what the devs told us. was it a runway success? no probably not but it was doing fine. Fine as it ok. acceptable. good enough.

if they had kept making missions and not bothered with f2p conversion, there would have been no content drought and the game would have gone on and it may have grown or may have held its place but it would have gone on.

i dont know the exact financial situation but in my opinion yes the game would be here and it would be doing fine if it was still a sub model. the conversion to f2p has hurt the game in the short term but if it had never happened we would never have had to go through that.

i have seen nothing to contradict that. i dont consider myself a defender or a fanboi or what ever else you probably think i am because i happen to have that viewpoint. there is no evidence that the game was close to failing. there is no evidence that it was not either. i only have my opinion and in mine it was fine and would have remained fine as a sub model. we will probably never know who is right.
Okay, some good points and your right, we will never know and can only speculate and give our own opinions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 869
01-31-2012, 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda View Post
Actually, most of thoose who were active in my fleet during the FE's were resubbers who came back just for thoose... Not lifers...
Okay another one of those of mine where I have no evidence and was purely specualting so we will never know.

Still not convinced though that the increase in people playing were people resubbing for FE. Resubbing for new seasons, then yes I can see people (myself included) subbing again for 30 days to try it out and then leaving

Now I am not sure, but did every season come with a new F/E? If so then yes I can see why people resubbed but not just for an FE but for a new season.

Either way, I still have no evidence only that they had no cups, so in that I read no money, which I also read as not being successful
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 870
01-31-2012, 06:44 AM
I am not saying that this is the general picture, just how it happend at my place.

I don't have evidence for this, and I would'n care to provide it if I did, cause such a thing is not nessacary (I don't belive in the "Screenshot or it didn happen" concept).

But deny it all you want, but the FE's are major player magnets, as indicated by the overlittered sectors where the missions were when it happend.... I simply can't belive that there are so many lifetime subscribers.
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