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# 11
01-31-2012, 08:06 PM
I disagree. O'brien has disobeyed orders on several occasions, to follow his own rules of right and wrong. I'm not sure that could be considered "Lawful"
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# 12
01-31-2012, 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
I've always though Odo more a lawful neutral type. He never seemed to really care who was writing the law, only who was breaking it. He upheld Cardassian and Dominion law just the same as Federation or Bajoran.

Though, who in DS9 really fits into lawful good?
Its funny you mention this, because Odo is definitely Lawful Neutral, in fact, his coolest speech of the series is entirely about his alignment "Laws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice." Yah, Odo is definitely Lawful Neutral.

I actually have to Disagree with the placement of Worf as Lawful Neutral. He is definitely Lawful Good. It's a huge part of his character, being caught between his honor (lawful) and doing what is right (Good).

The funny thing is, throughout the series most of the characters had shifts in their alignment. By the end Dukat was unequivocally Chaotic Evil, but early on? No way, throughout most of the series he wasn't even really evil, at first he seemed a little lawful evil, but then when the Detapa Council took over and the Klingon invasion happened he seemed more Neutral (or at times, Lawful Neutral) it wasn't even a paradigm shift really, just a fleshing out of the character and his motivations.

Also: O'brien is Neutral Good, no doubt about it. Somebody mentioned his slightly racist attitudes, but ultimately it was more lingering hostility from a brutal war he fought in, and once faced with individual Cardassians who weren't J-Holes, he changed his tune.
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# 13
02-01-2012, 01:00 AM
Would anyone agree with the idea that Janeway could be considered lawful good? She follows the Starfleet directives to the very end in some cases.
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# 14
02-01-2012, 01:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelldar View Post
Would anyone agree with the idea that Janeway could be considered lawful good? She follows the Starfleet directives to the very end in some cases.
are you kidding?

watch endgame, equinox and scorpian and then come back to us. she followed starfleet principles to a degree but there are episodes where she goes completely off the spectrum.
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# 15
02-01-2012, 01:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Revo
are you kidding?

watch endgame, equinox and scorpian and then come back to us. she followed starfleet principles to a degree but there are episodes where she goes completely off the spectrum.
Without a doubt she has walked the line on occasion but in the same episodes you see the impact of her morals and how reluctant she is to make the decision. I think there's a clear difference between someone who is "Good" and follows the rules being "lawful" and only breaks them when it is an absolute necessity and those who would actively seek to circumvent the rules with the intent of doing "good."

You have to admit that for 7 years she held true to the Starfleet principles that eventually brought her crew home, had she broken the rules more than she had to Voyager would have been home a lot sooner, she knows this and you could see the conflict and guilt she felt over this in the show..

Talking out of the context of voyager now character alignment is always much more of a guide in roleplaying games rather than a strict rule the character follows flawlessly, take it from a frequent DM /nerd :p
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# 16
02-01-2012, 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
OBrien should be Lawful Good, and Keiko should be Chaotic Evil.
O'Brien should simply be "The Victim". He has to suffer!
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# 17
02-01-2012, 05:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelldar View Post
Without a doubt she has walked the line on occasion but in the same episodes you see the impact of her morals and how reluctant she is to make the decision. I think there's a clear difference between someone who is "Good" and follows the rules being "lawful" and only breaks them when it is an absolute necessity and those who would actively seek to circumvent the rules with the intent of doing "good."

You have to admit that for 7 years she held true to the Starfleet principles that eventually brought her crew home, had she broken the rules more than she had to Voyager would have been home a lot sooner, she knows this and you could see the conflict and guilt she felt over this in the show..

Talking out of the context of voyager now character alignment is always much more of a guide in roleplaying games rather than a strict rule the character follows flawlessly, take it from a frequent DM /nerd :p
Sometimes. Not every time. She also spent entire episodes just looking for flimsy justification for breaking the Prime Directive on purely internal matters of culture and government, and spent at least one episode threatening to throw people off the ship if they break the prime directive to save a peaceful civilization, backed only by "I said so" and the baby Hitler fallacy.

She's all over the board enough to almost qualify as true neutral on the schizophrenic archetype, but even disregarding the outliers, your own desscription is not lawful good. Breaking the rules when its the right thing to do is chaotic good. There's a reason the chaotic end of the scale, good or evil, is the end that generally gets things done. However, letting a planet die because its the rules is lawful evil.

The alignments may not be hard set boxes, but lawful good is still pretty restrictive. A paladin who broke alignment a fraction as often as Janeway would be pretty much irrecoverably fallen.
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# 18
02-01-2012, 05:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Revo
are you kidding?

watch endgame, equinox and scorpion and then come back to us. she followed starfleet principles to a degree but there are episodes where she goes completely off the spectrum.
Yes when she bartered with the Klingon General for a Cloaking device how did she use it.. Revenge
Revenge is a StarFleet officer that never forgets.. the BOrg.

Following the Greater Good Precept and protecting in a Mother Earth almost Gia NG
and not a Vulcan Monk TN Which Reminds me of ARchers dealings with the Vulcans that were dealing in a Romulan Fasion with the Andorians
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# 19
02-01-2012, 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelldar View Post
Without a doubt she has walked the line on occasion but in the same episodes you see the impact of her morals and how reluctant she is to make the decision. I think there's a clear difference between someone who is "Good" and follows the rules being "lawful" and only breaks them when it is an absolute necessity and those who would actively seek to circumvent the rules with the intent of doing "good."

You have to admit that for 7 years she held true to the Starfleet principles that eventually brought her crew home, had she broken the rules more than she had to Voyager would have been home a lot sooner, she knows this and you could see the conflict and guilt she felt over this in the show..

Talking out of the context of voyager now character alignment is always much more of a guide in roleplaying games rather than a strict rule the character follows flawlessly, take it from a frequent DM /nerd :p
There is no way you can claim Janeway's alignment is anything but chaotic. She was inconsistent in crew evaluations, her reaction to violations of her orders, even in her command decisions. And starting from the reason they were stuck in the Delta Quadrant in the first place, she was all over the map. She destroyed the Caretaker's Array and involved herself in the internal conflict of THREE sentient species (which would haunt her for several seasons with the Kazon).

Lets not even mention the fact that Janeway also used a subspace weapon (banned by the Khitomer Accords), which presumably parallels to modern day nukes, without authorization from Starfleet. And a few episodes later she is involved in the destruction of an entire planet, placing an entire pre-warp civilization in extinction.

Yeah, that sure sounds Lawful Good to me.
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# 20
02-01-2012, 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuatela
I disagree. O'brien has disobeyed orders on several occasions, to follow his own rules of right and wrong. I'm not sure that could be considered "Lawful"
Lawful/Chaotic is highly misunderstood. It is not related to how well you obey the law. Good people follow good laws (and don't follow evil laws) and Evil people follow the laws whenever it serves their purposes. Lawful/Chaotic refers to how disciplined a character is. O'Brien is very disciplined, even if he doesn't always follow orders.
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