Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 991
02-06-2012, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
This. QFT.

Yes, more powerful, more unique editors exist--but only outside MMOs.

For the genre, STO has the most powerful client-facing editor and its toolset does many things faster than even non-MMO NWN's (despite being less robust).

If we're arguing which MMO UGC tool is the most powerful with more features than any other MMO UGC tool, the Foundry wins (at least as far as released games go--a few new ones appear to be more robust but are unreleased).

Improvement is logically predicated on innovation. If something new isn't done to the design of a good or service, then there cannot be improvement.





Innovation precedes improvement. One can only improve if one does something new.

You can't have improvement without a new change to the paradigm:
there are no car engines that run faster without contributing a new change, whether fuel source, physical design, etc..

Innovation is part of improvement because something had to change (the change is new) in order for it to improve.

QED

(I am tired of debating this; take care and enjoy both games. There are reasons to like both TOR and STO: very different reasons, mind you.
As I said before and I will say again and has been pointed out by others. This is not what the original debate was over. No one is denying that foundry "might" have the best UGC tools in an MMo, but we are talking about new features that STO has brought to the table, not existing features that another MMo had that they have improved on.

This still hasn't been answered by you or by Armsman however if you want to keep on confirming that Foundry is the Innovative thing, then so be it.

I too have done debating with you on this as it's clear to me that this is all you and Armsan have as to backing up your opinion on innovation for STO and we are never going to agree.

In the end, I hope the debate ends with no animosity and we can agree to just disagree (I say this just to you Darren), others just want to try and hate because their IP's MMo is not even half as good as the TOR's MMo.

And before people ask why I am still here in the STO forums, if I dislike the game so much-

1. I love Star Trek and I still get annoyed with STO, knowing what it could and should have been.
2. I love the forums more than the game(and always have) and like debating and discussing with fellow Star Trek fans
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 992
02-06-2012, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
...but overall, as far as MMO gameplay and innovation, I'd say they've [Cryptic] done more on the game mechanics side then BioWare - STO's big failing is it is still light on Dev created mission content - and that is a MAJOR issue.
Despite STOs' gameplay seeming more varied and a seamless blend of space/ground, I think SWTOR utilizes its IP much better than STO does and that's before you start considering content shortage issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
Honestly, I'd love to see BOTH these MMOs survive and thrive as I hate the High fantasy genre of MMOs.
Me too.

At the end of the day though, if I ask myself which game has more potential to keep my interest alive, I think SWTOR is the one and STO is a place to visit from FE to FE. We'll see how that changes over time though...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 993
02-06-2012, 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
As I said before and I will say again and has been pointed out by others. This is not what the original debate was over. No one is denying that foundry "might" have the best UGC tools in an MMo, but we are talking about new features that STO has brought to the table, not existing features that another MMo had that they have improved on.

This still hasn't been answered by you or by Armsman however if you want to keep on confirming that Foundry is the Innovative thing, then so be it.

I too have done debating with you on this as it's clear to me that this is all you and Armsan have as to backing up your opinion on innovation for STO and we are never going to agree.

In the end, I hope the debate ends with no animosity and we can agree to just disagree (I say this just to you Darren), others just want to try and hate because their IP's MMo is not even half as good as the TOR's MMo.

And before people ask why I am still here in the STO forums, if I dislike the game so much-

1. I love Star Trek and I still get annoyed with STO, knowing what it could and should have been.
2. I love the forums more than the game(and always have) and like debating and discussing with fellow Star Trek fans
We'll have to agree on some parts and disagree on others.

STO could be so much more--there's no doubt in my mind regarding that--and it's kind of disheartening to see mismanagement on several different levels regarding its development.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 994
02-06-2012, 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordOfPit View Post
I know I'm late to this discussion, however any innovation if there is any that can be found in the Foundry, has already been outdone by other toolkits in other games. Not in MMO's perhaps, but compared UGC toolsets found in single-player games the isolated Foundry isn't truly innovative when you consider you could create content made for groups of players in other tools before STO was even conceived, and in much better detail at least from the story-boarding and NPC interactions perspectives.

Is the inclusion of a UGC toolset in an MMO innovative? It used to be. Is the Foundry innovative in its own right...? I doubt that Darren.

What is truly innovative about what Cryptic has done, and is doing, is the concept of one platform that is exposed to many players through an accessible game-client that allows those players to experience different worlds in different settings and create adventures for one another.

The previous statement will be true if NWO and CO both feature a Foundry system that is at least as comprehensive as the current STO Foundry is, and even then, that statement speaks not of CO, STO or NWO but of the innovation regarding all three games to share the same code-base!

An innovation that quite frankly has already been scoffed at by the playerbase when they regard STO as CO-in-TREK but I'm sure the investors would've loved that business plan if everything worked out!
LOL. You made me laugh when I thought, "How much would the players rage if I called the game CO in Space?"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 995
02-06-2012, 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
As I said before and I will say again and has been pointed out by others. This is not what the original debate was over. No one is denying that foundry "might" have the best UGC tools in an MMo, but we are talking about new features that STO has brought to the table, not existing features that another MMo had that they have improved on.

This still hasn't been answered by you or by Armsman however if you want to keep on confirming that Foundry is the Innovative thing, then so be it.

I too have done debating with you on this as it's clear to me that this is all you and Armsan have as to backing up your opinion on innovation for STO and we are never going to agree.

In the end, I hope the debate ends with no animosity and we can agree to just disagree (I say this just to you Darren), others just want to try and hate because their IP's MMo is not even half as good as the TOR's MMo.

And before people ask why I am still here in the STO forums, if I dislike the game so much-

1. I love Star Trek and I still get annoyed with STO, knowing what it could and should have been.
2. I love the forums more than the game(and always have) and like debating and discussing with fellow Star Trek fans
I am trying this Foundry thing and it has a lot of issues too. So it's not all peaches and cream. Now that I've played with it a bit, there's aspects of AE in CoX I prefer over this and some parts of the Foundry I like better than AE. But it's not a slam dunk one-sided victory as people make it out to be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 996
02-06-2012, 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
Nice try man.

As Darren pointed out with my putting the original NWN into the discussion, we are talking about MMos not single player games.

By your logic, STO is just a update of Bridge Commander and SFC?

Shesh man, you really want to try and make out that TOR is no where near as good as STO. It must really rankle you that TOR is proving to be more of a success then most STO fans wanted it to be (1.7 mil...)

I really think because STO failed, reviews were poor, no content to speak of, C-store + Subs and finally F2P, that you really wanted TOR to go down the same route and fail.

To bad, that even with it's faults, TOR fans are not only enjoying the plentiful content consisting of PVP, PVE, Crafting, A space Mini game and 16 different classes with 8 different stories to see, no cash shop (as yet ) and with updates coming out and we are not 2 months into the game, it's showing what you can do with an IP, as long as you have a developer that cares about it's image and wants to bring out a fun game.

And before the defenders come back with the same old excuse of TORs budget VS Cryptics, let me remind you how Cryptic sold/sell themselves to publishers, "we have an engine that can create MMos within 2 years". Now I don't blame Cryptic really for this, but I do blame CBS who said basically, yep go with it. And yes, once again I understand about Perpetual and the licence, but in the end, you get what you pay for and that's exactly what we go for our great IP. STO!

It's funny what you read into my postings because as they stand - YES, TOR is a better MMO game then STO by virtue of the content it launched with - no arguement there. IMO had STO been able to match the amount of mission content TOR had at launch, I do feel it would be the better game - but it didn't (by a LARGE margin) so it's not.

BUT that said - with 200 million and 6 years or development (including the pre-development phases) my point is STO introduced some more innovative MMO game mechanics. I guess my biggest dissapointment with TOR was BioWare pushing how they were doing many innovative things for TOR, yet in the end, it's a true WoW clone - with the only real MMO innovation being the story cutscene dialogue.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 997
02-06-2012, 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
By that definition SWToR is even less innovative as well, since the 'dialog wheel' and NPC cutscenes have been in most BioWare games previously.
Then so is STO when there's many things I've seen before in previous Cryptic work. So basically it's just no spandex (and capes).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 998
02-06-2012, 06:12 PM
Apparently some of the official numbers as of Dec 31, 2011 have been released.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 999
02-06-2012, 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenor-Nyiad View Post
Apparently some of the official numbers as of Dec 31, 2011 have been released.
Are you referring to the 1.7 million subs?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1000
02-06-2012, 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
I guess my biggest dissapointment with TOR was BioWare pushing how they were doing many innovative things for TOR, yet in the end, it's a true WoW clone - with the only real MMO innovation being the story cutscene dialogue.
WoW true clone? Is there really such a thing? Since WoW itself is a clone of many other popular MMO's combined - all Blizzard did was take the best of those other MMOs, put them into one package and made a SUPERIOR product.

So aside from some crafting elements and user interface, TOR is unique in and of itself for the most part, Bioware took both elements of Mass Effect and Star Wars Knights The Old Republic and actually continued SWTOR story arc.

So when folks refer every new MMO as to a WoW clone, I kinda chuckle at the folly of such statement. Want a TRUE TRUE WoW Clone, play RIFT - because that game is just WoW with better graphics.

Besides, being a WoW clone is actually not a bad thing, as I mentioned before - Blizzards did it right by taking the best from different MMOs and putting it in one pretty damn good package. If it were not a good thing, Blizzard wouldn't have the huge success that they had - and no Ozzie, Mr T, and now Chuck Norris promoters
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