Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-06-2012, 11:46 PM
Tactical +damage% consoles:
I do not know how they work into a damage formula (last we tested, they increased actual damage by roughly 9%), but contrary to popular belief that the +damage% consoles now have diminishing returns because they've been changed to percentages, they in fact do not have any diminishing returns, and stack straight. I personally tested this and it can be replicated by checking your damage/dps with no consoles, 1 console, 2 consoles, and 3 consoles.

Engineering +resistance% consoles:
These definitely have diminishing returns as stated and observable in the stats. One Mk XI Neutronium Alloy (rare) adds roughly 12% all energy resistance to my science vessel, while a second adds roughly 8% all energy resistance.
( 1 - 1 / (1 + (<armor points> / 100)) ) ) * 100 = actual resistance %

All other flat skill-stat consoles stack straight. Shield Capacity% console does not stack (not supposed to, at least). Everything else, I couldn't say.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-07-2012, 03:20 AM
No consoles have any true diminishing returns, including resistance.
See http://theenginescannaetakeit.wordpr...shing-returns/
Adding a second resistance console of the same type will increase your TTL (time to live) by the same amount the first one did. Ditto for a 3rd or 4th.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-07-2012, 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainu
No consoles have any true diminishing returns, including resistance.
See http://theenginescannaetakeit.wordpr...shing-returns/
Adding a second resistance console of the same type will increase your TTL (time to live) by the same amount the first one did. Ditto for a 3rd or 4th.
Very informative read; I didn't think to consider it was converting the value to work like that and the actual changes in effect after all was calculated, only that you "get" less and less compared to what the consoles say. Two different implications of "diminishing returns", I suppose.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-07-2012, 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FB2140 View Post
Very informative read; I didn't think to consider it was converting the value to work like that and the actual changes in effect after all was calculated, only that you "get" less and less compared to what the consoles say. Two different implications of "diminishing returns", I suppose.
Crytics basic buff/debuff mechnics does have dmimshing returns build into the math. So the thing to remember is that the diminishing returns (with or w/o soft caps) works on the total amount of the buffs/debuffs. It doesn't matter how you get there (i.e. multiple consoles or a large number of stacking buffs).

And there are some explicit diminishing returns (aka soft caps) for certain aspects of the game. Cryptic adds another factor to the math to reatly flatten out the curves beyond cetain points (o.e. the soft cap).. But they only occurs at the very extremes. It's not something a player would normally encounter unless they stack a LOT of like buffs.

One area it's used is in the Accuracy vs Defense values. In the median ranges, Accuracy and Defense offset each other one to one. At the extremes differences (high Acc vs Low Def or Low Acc vs High Def), the offset of one to one starts deviate a lot. I forgot the the magnitude was but beyond that point, the curve really flattens out. You still get some benefits from stack more Acc or Def, but it's only small amount. And I think that Armor points (i.e. Hull Damage Resistance) works that way as well. (It's been awhile since I've seen those STOked Episodes with Captain Geko on the "You Got Mathed" segements..He explained both mechanics and even provides the formulas the game uses.)
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Posts: 120
# 15
02-07-2012, 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
Crytics basic buff/debuff mechnics does have dmimshing returns build into the math. So the thing to remember is that the diminishing returns (with or w/o soft caps) works on the total amount of the buffs/debuffs. It doesn't matter how you get there (i.e. multiple consoles or a large number of stacking buffs).
Yeah. Trying to remember it now as, value gain changes (diminishing returns), actual effect does not (no diminishing returns), based on the perspective of the link above. If the consoles or buffs stacked straight with no diminishing returns in the values, one would actually get exponential returns, from what I can understand now. (Say, flat 12% resistance out of 100 is 12%; flat 12% resistance out of the resulting 88% (new 100) would actually be 13.6%, and so on! So the actual value has to be adjusted for the resulting effect to stay 12%, thus diminishing returns in the value but not the effect.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
And there are some explicit diminishing returns (aka soft caps) for certain aspects of the game. Cryptic adds another factor to the math to reatly flatten out the curves beyond cetain points (o.e. the soft cap).. But they only occurs at the very extremes. It's not something a player would normally encounter unless they stack a LOT of like buffs.

One area it's used is in the Accuracy vs Defense values. In the median ranges, Accuracy and Defense offset each other one to one. At the extremes differences (high Acc vs Low Def or Low Acc vs High Def), the offset of one to one starts deviate a lot. I forgot the the magnitude was but beyond that point, the curve really flattens out. You still get some benefits from stack more Acc or Def, but it's only small amount. And I think that Armor points (i.e. Hull Damage Resistance) works that way as well. (It's been awhile since I've seen those STOked Episodes with Captain Geko on the "You Got Mathed" segements..He explained both mechanics and even provides the formulas the game uses.)
Insight into the mechanics is always appreciated. Especially running sci/sci where armor/resistance/defense can really shoot through the roof.
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# 16
02-09-2012, 10:56 AM
Maybe I'm not understanding how the damage consoles work, because the math doesn't quite make sense.

According to my MK XII DHC, it says my cannon does 394 damage (261 DPS).

Go out into a zone, and my power levels are 125/90 for weapons, which should be 250% of my current damage. But, this applies after the consoles, yes?

So, I currently have a +26% and +22% damage enhancing console.

26% of 394 damage (261 DPS), rounded, is 102 damage (68 DPS), making the enhancement 496 damage (329 DPS).

22% of 394 damage (261 DPS), rounded, is 87 damage (57 DPS), making the enhancement 481 damage (318 DPS).

Total bonuses, before weapon subsystem calculation, should be 394 damage (261 DPS) + 102 damage (68 DPS) + 87 damage (57 DPS) = 583 damage (386 DPS).

After weapon subsystem bonus, my damage should look like 583 damage (386 DPS) x 250% = 1458 damage (965 DPS).

However, and I can't quite recall what my damage was in combat space, my DPS is 1,088 DPS. Where is this extra 123 DPS coming from?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-09-2012, 12:10 PM
You are applying the consoles wrong. But rather than write everything again. Let me use some thing I posted in another similar thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by me
The +X% for consoles is correct. And they work like they are supposed to. But there is one very important factor that you rand other player don't realize and take into account. Consoles add to skill bonus totals. The +X% you add isn't just to the base amount. You are adding to a base amount AND skill bonuses from Captain Skills (and possibly other sources)

I don't know the exact math how the Captain Weapon skills work towards base damage. I'm using made up math to illustrate how consoles work in generate.

To keep things simple let's just take Starship Weapons captain skill at rank 9 you have a total of +99% of skill bonus. For base 150 weapon damage * 1.99 = 298.5 net weapon damage. Adding in a +24% Weapon Consoles. That gives +123% skills skill bonus total. So that means 150 base damage * ( 1+ .99 + .24) = 364.5 net weapon damage.

Another example, 4x +25% Disruptor Consoles slotted into a Bortas. That +100% skill bonus for disruptors. Let's stay with just the Starship Weapons skill at rank 9. So 150 base damage * ( 1 + .99 +1) = 150 * 2.99 = 448.50. That +100% isn't doubling the amount of damage your weapons are doing they are just adding (almost) a 1/3 more damage on top +99% you get from skills.

Note: Armor consoles work exactly the same way. Except that now they don't refer to the values as percentages. Player were getting very confused as to how the Consoles are percentages worked into hull damage resistance (reduction) as a percentage. Now armor consoles are measured in armor points.
I still don't know how Starships Weapons and Starship Energy Weapons and Starship Project Weapons work in regards to Weapon Damage. After listening to Al Rivera's interview on Priotiry 1, I would guess that it's 1/2 and 1/2 from each tier of skill.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 18
02-09-2012, 01:36 PM
Interesting.

So, if subsystem is at 50, that is where you get the 1 value? Then 125 should be 2.5?

2.5 + .49 + .49 + .48 = 3.96

3.96 x 394 damage (261 DPS) = 1,560 damage (1,034 DPS)

That's certainly closer then my previous equation.

I suppose, if I factor in the passive skills on my Captain that were earned through accolades, that it would make up the difference?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-10-2012, 02:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
Maybe I'm not understanding how the damage consoles work, because the math doesn't quite make sense.

According to my MK XII DHC, it says my cannon does 394 damage (261 DPS).

Go out into a zone, and my power levels are 125/90 for weapons, which should be 250% of my current damage. But, this applies after the consoles, yes?

So, I currently have a +26% and +22% damage enhancing console.

26% of 394 damage (261 DPS), rounded, is 102 damage (68 DPS), making the enhancement 496 damage (329 DPS).

22% of 394 damage (261 DPS), rounded, is 87 damage (57 DPS), making the enhancement 481 damage (318 DPS).

Total bonuses, before weapon subsystem calculation, should be 394 damage (261 DPS) + 102 damage (68 DPS) + 87 damage (57 DPS) = 583 damage (386 DPS).

After weapon subsystem bonus, my damage should look like 583 damage (386 DPS) x 250% = 1458 damage (965 DPS).

However, and I can't quite recall what my damage was in combat space, my DPS is 1,088 DPS. Where is this extra 123 DPS coming from?
Funny, the topic of damage calculations just came up with FBP and I digged up an old post by CaptainGeko.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...84#post3632284

The most important thing may be that there are a few hidden modifiers to damage, and it is important how to understand the stacking process of these damage buffs. Not sure if this solves your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
Here is part of the basic formula: BaseDamage X (1+ sum of all DamBonus)
Let's say you have a weapon that does, say 25 damage (I'm making this value up, but its probably similar to the turret in question).
Itís a mark 11, so it has a natural DamBonus 1.05
You are probably in a tier 5 ship that grants a DamBonus of 1
You probably have skills that grant a DamBonus of around 1
Each Damage enhancement has a DamBonus 0.1
Each non-damage enhancement now grants a .025 DamBonus (note, Damage enhancements did not get this extra damage bonus)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-10-2012, 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
Interesting.

So, if subsystem is at 50, that is where you get the 1 value? Then 125 should be 2.5?

2.5 + .49 + .49 + .48 = 3.96

3.96 x 394 damage (261 DPS) = 1,560 damage (1,034 DPS)

That's certainly closer then my previous equation.

I suppose, if I factor in the passive skills on my Captain that were earned through accolades, that it would make up the difference?
I'm not sure how Weapon Power enters into the damage formula. I figure it's a multipler of the net value. But I'd have to experiment around more to see that it was.

Edit: Playing around a bit weapon power. It's a multiplier to the net damage.

Passive skills, dunno. Adding .02 (+2%) to 3-4 or top of a Weapon and Ship factors + skill bonus + console totals seems like almost a null value. To be something substantial and yet still minor, I think it add to the net damage. It's a decent amount of extra damage, but nothing game breaking.
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