Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-10-2012, 05:51 PM
Well you were talking to me as tho you had not a clue as to what i was discussing. So i tried to convey it in a way that came across easiest for you.

As for the on and off photos. That looks like a dirty hack to get lit windows. What would be alot better and what most do is to use a glow map on a lit as in texture lit window which the glow would enhance the look of the lit window. There shouldn't be a off version. This is one way most modders would do, cryptic went a different way which looks poor imo its like nav lights half stuck in the holes to me lol. Not your problem i know im just discussing lit windows the way i thought would look alot nicer because as it stands i dont see the proper way of lit windows i.e there too dull and there not textured whites with a glow map to enhance the effect but instead something else like i said that looks like nav lights half in the model in the holes where the window is. Still it was a long shot that anything would change but it was nice to discuss as i do like models and textures look as good as possible.

They might look better if whatever is used to get the white bits was bumped in brightness.

Btw did you notice the lack of windows on the inner rim of the outer ring on the sto model?


And while it is me bringing this up i would think almost any trek fan would probably approve of the suggestion.

As for the photos of the studio model that is cryptics interpretation of the color of the model. But i would guess due to the bad quality of color in them pics that it gives a false impression of a tan which then would if a better source was obtained would show it better that it was more of a dark grey than light tan. Look on the show, all trek games with ds9 in and you would see why the majority has it portrayed as dark grey. Of course that is just my opinion but i think others would agree.

Oh here is a studio model shot which shows it more grey imo of course and of better quality than screenies provided.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File...ce_9_model.jpg
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sc...christies1.jpg
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sc...christies2.jpg

I understand alot of these are nitpicks and that probably wont change just because i bring this up but nice to know that you popped by and replied and had a chat about it. Thanks.

Sorry if i come across a bit direct its just my way sometimes. Especially when trek is involved and it involves things i have experience with like models and texturing and effects as been doing it since around 1999. Your probably the same, never a finished thing modeling and texturing is it lol.

At the end of the day i was just pointing you to a few bits i thought could be touched up for accuracy to the shows model that is all. Wont bother you more with it as nothing else to say really.

Edit - 1 thing i did notice that the windows you show are different to ones i see a bit, maybe its with tweaks that is coming up for the FE series im not sure. Btw i tried adjusting bloom strength ingame and they dont effect the ds9 windows much compared to say the glows on my defiant like the blue bits on the back of the nacelles or the blue circle things on top of the defiant which i would have thought would do something to the windows as much i think few of the windows did slightly change but nothing really of noteworthy.

http://yfrog.com/go52223917j For comparison i tried to get as close as you did. Your picture for the On photo does look alot nicer than what is currently viewable to me tho so even if that is a small change it is welcome. Looking forward to the lighting and window changes from you "on" picture when they get to holodeck.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-10-2012, 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
I'm not sure why you insist on talking to me as though I've never worked in 3D before . . .

DS9's windows do in fact glow. On/Off
The Material has been the same since April 2010. No changes have been made, hence my initial lack of knowledge on the subject. I hadn't touched the materials, and thus didn't know anything specific about them. I do now, and can assure you, the windows do have a glow map, and do in fact glow. The above images were taken by temporarily modifying the material file to remove the glow, then restoring it.

The DS9 studio model, used in the show, was painted in a desaturated tan.
Our model is also painted a similar shade/hue of tan.

Your personal interpretations of how YOU feel DS9 should look are noted, but you are not the art director on the project, and while I appreciate your feedback, I will not be changing things upon your whims.
Where are the lights on the edges of the other structures -- not the rings, but the connective structures? Also the ones on the inside of the docking ring?

http://www.delotro.com/images/sto/ds9lights.jpg

In your photos, the foreground lights actually look washed out. They look like white textures instead of actual lights. The contrast isn't right. There's no glow is the point I think he's trying to make.

Look at this shot for what I'm talking about. High contrast, appropriate glow.

There are other things too -- like the missing spire above ops, and the runabout pads on the inner ring. Little errors that fans will notice.

The station is good, but it could look more like the show if you just use a bit more of a critical eye.

Thanks for the hard work! I hope you have time to make it a little better.

-Forjo
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Posts: 120
# 13
02-10-2012, 06:19 PM
Thanks Forjo it is what im talking about.

Edit - Hmm disabled F lux and the white shows nicer instead of yellowy brown now, still not really glowing to me but the lights at least look a bit more white now. Also ds9 looks a bit more grey now but still has a awful tan on it imo.

So im sorry for what was said before, whilst its true what i said in most part but some part was because i use F lux which effects the monitor at night so its easier on the eyes.. But the problems still remain just say 20-30% not as bad due to F lux adjusting the color temperature of the monitor as night comes.


Still think the windows just look like textures tho and not nice bold bright white windows with light coming out of them. I.e doesn't glow or glow not on as strong as it should be or expanding as far as it should be.
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# 14
02-10-2012, 06:24 PM
More importantly, let's play Where's USS Yeager?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-10-2012, 06:30 PM
My initial reply was to the insistence that DS9's windows "don't glow" which they certainly do.

There are issues with the model, I never said the station is perfect. Believe me, many of those points were things I noticed as well. Some of those could be addressed, some are more difficult. My point was that the windows DO have a glow map, and are illuminated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-10-2012, 06:34 PM
True enough. But i still say that the glow for the windows isnt as good as the glow as the bottom of ds9 the red section. That is a nice glow which is effected by bloom slider in options, the windows dont really look as there glowing and dont adjust when the bloom slider is adjusted.

Do you think they could be stronger tumerboy, higher contrast, more white, better bleeding out of the window area for the haze a glow gives, maybe? Or just fine as is to you?

Edit - Actually them large windows at the top of ds9 do glow good (when bloom is high) its just the square/circle ones which is the majority that dont light (sry er glow) up like the top oval larger windows or the red bit under ds9.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-10-2012, 07:08 PM
I took a BUNCH of screenshots and did some moving around.

It looks like the windows actually might have some kind of reflection map -- they change depending on the camera angle. This is especially visible in this shot.

Now compare it to this shot where I rotate the camera around.

Same lights, different glow. And they do glow, but only up close at a certain angle. When I rotate around the other way, it's still up close, but no glow.

My Odyssey is there for comparison. The windows and nacelles clearly show what a glow map should look like.

Here are the rest of my shots:

http://www.delotro.com/images/sto/1.jpg
http://www.delotro.com/images/sto/2.jpg
http://www.delotro.com/images/sto/3.jpg
http://www.delotro.com/images/sto/4.jpg
http://www.delotro.com/images/sto/6.jpg

Also, I just noticed there a BIG difference between the lights on the core ring and the middle ring. The core ones are white and don't change with camera angle. The appear to be "right".

Can you do anything about it?

-Forjo
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# 18
02-10-2012, 08:14 PM
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5297/ds92.jpg

I think that screen best demonstrates a difference between the promenade lights and everything else. I don't play on graphics settings high enough to notice anything though *shrug*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirian_darkstar View Post
More importantly, let's play Where's USS Yeager?
NOOOOOOO!!!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-10-2012, 08:40 PM
My apologies Skeeter, I'm human (or taco, it's hard to tell sometimes), and as such, just like many of you can misinterpret what we (devs) mean when we post, I misinterpreted your posts as well.

For future reference, I will always appreciate constructive feedback posed in a form such as this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HypotheticalPoster
Hey Tumerboy, I was looking at DS9 tonight, and I think there are some things that could be improved. The window lights look dim, and I think the color of DS9 is off a bit. It should be more grey than brown, and the lights should be brighter.
I may disagree with your statements, but I fully appreciate the comments.

The problem comes with what I heard in my taco while reading your posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidTacoHead
Hey Tumerboy, WTF? You guys don't know what you're doing! DS9 looks like crap, and you clearly don't understand how glow maps work. Let me explain how to do your job.
Clearly, that's not what you said, but how it came across on my end. That's my fault, and I'm sorry for it.

My initial confusion was not because I didn't grasp the concept of glow maps, as I stated, DS9 is definitely using glow maps for all of the windows, but because your initial statement was that the windows didn't glow. I knew that they did (obviously not brightly enough for your tates), and was confused at why you might think they weren't.

Anyway, at this point, I think we need to clarify some things.

1) Glow is a term I (and I would guess most Env Artists) interpret as synonymous with Light, Luminosity, or Emissive. This is what a glow/luminosity/emissive map is for. This is exactly what DS9 does. There is a texture for each material that masks out certain areas (windows) where a brightness should be applied. In this case, it may not be bright enough.

2) Bloom is a post processing technique used to make light areas appear brighter than a monitor can display. Without bloom, the brightest anything can get is pure white. Bloom is used to 'blow out' those areas, causing fuzzy light to bleed out over the edge of the bright spot, making it appear brighter than it really is.

I believe you were using the word glow, when you really meant bloom. The windows of DS9 do glow. That is, they emit their own light. If we were to take away all lighting in the scene, the windows would still be visible because they provide their own luminance. However, they do not bloom, because they are not terribly bright. While they do glow, per the above definition, they are not bright enough to blow out.

Now, as for the reflective material. Yes, I believe DS9's materials are set to be reflective. That is likely causing what you are seeing, where the color of the window (or perhaps it's brightness) is dependent on the angle from which it's viewed. It's possible that this reflectivity is not properly masked off.

So, with all of that said, could the lights be brighter? Yes. Can I do this? Yes. Will I? I have no idea.

There is a lot of stuff I would love to do to DS9 (inside and out), including many of the issues Frojo mentioned above (and yes, I had noticed all of them already). But my work is scheduled, and I haven't heard of any upcoming time in which to address any of these issues. Could I work on these on my own, spare time? Sure. . . but I really don't think it's fair to ask that of me. I work a lot already, and I do like to have some time to myself, doing non work things. I may still work on this outside of my normal job requirements, but that will be my own decision.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-10-2012, 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
Sure. . . but I really don't think it's fair to ask that of me. I work a lot already, and I do like to have some time to myself, doing non work things. I may still work on this outside of my normal job requirements, but that will be my own decision.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY7xhnJtlkE&t=1m45s
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