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# 11
02-17-2012, 11:53 PM
Ron Moore once said that he thought 30,000 ships sounded about right when he worked on DS9, however they would never mention on screen how many ships Starfleet actually had.
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# 12
02-18-2012, 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
300 million is likely optimistic as many of those planets are not Class M types that support a range of life toward the poles.

I'm assuming colonies of a few thousand to hundred thousand make up a bulk of recognized member planets.
not really. Vulcan and earth alone have over 6 billion each at least. divide but by 300 million and you already have 40 planets covered by that 300 million range, if we are working out the average.

when you consider other planets that will most likely have huge pops like trill, tella, batazed i think a 300 million average is on the low end of the scale.
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# 13
02-18-2012, 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Revo
not really. Vulcan and earth alone have over 6 billion each at least. divide but by 300 million and you already have 40 planets covered by that 300 million range, if we are working out the average.

when you consider other planets that will most likely have huge pops like trill, tella, batazed i think a 300 million average is on the low end of the scale.
Earth today is hovering around 6.4 Billion. Even assuming massive losses to the Eugenics Wars, WWIII, the Earth-Romulan War, Colonization/Emigration, the Xindi attack, the (first) Cardassian War, the Dominion War, various encounters with the Borg and failed colonies like Tarsus IV, and more responsible reproductive habits, we're still probably in the 4-5 Billion range around STOs timeline.

I'd be willing to bet with the Pon Far cycle and highly logical society, however, that Vulcan would maybe be around half that. But Betazed? Twice that.

EDIT: Oh, and Delta IV? We don't even want to know.
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# 14
02-18-2012, 02:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
Well, taking into account Picards statement in First Contact that the Federation is spread across 8,000 Light Years with "over 150" member planets, as well as the assertion that there are over 1,000 semi-autonomous colonies within the Federation..

Population statistics in Trek are rather hard to come by, but, according to the Brain Trust that Bashir tried to cure, genetically modified genius' with severe emotional problems all, estimated that the Federation would take 900 Million casualties to the Dominion (in losing).

Now, if we take these numbers as being considered catastrophic for the Federations Population, then we can probably estimate that 900 Million casualties would be the entire populations of several planets. Lets assume 300 Million per planet in the Federation, some more, some less, but averaging about 300 Million.

At 150+ Planets, at ~300 Million people per, that's somewhere on the order of 45 Trillion Federation citizens on member worlds, plus more than a Thousand Colonies (which may have populations numbering anywhere from a few thousand to a few million).

Now, assuming ~2% of those populations join Starfleet in some capacity, That's 900 Million members of Starfleet (or, all the casualties projected by the Brain Trust). Now, assuming 3/5 of those members of Starfleet are not on ships, but running Starbases, Drydocks, Shipyards, Clerical Functions, Public Relations and Diplomatic personnel, that's 360 Million members of Starfleet in ships.

With Crews numbering from 1500 (Odyssey) to 35 (Defiant) that's somewhere between 240 Thousand and 10 Million + ships.

These numbers are all very loose of course and my estimates could be way off, but still..
I think you're on the right track but some of your numbers are off. Shouldn't the total population be just 45 billion if there is 150 member worlds with 300 million people each?

I also had a quick look for info on the US navy, as thats what Starfleet is based on. It currently has 285 "Deployable Battle Force Ships". Since the US conveniently has a population of ~300 million, which nicely matches your estimate which I think is pretty fair, Starfleet would have over 42,000 ships if they want to keep the same ratio of ships : people. Though this doesnt take into account the fact that those are "battle ships", and Starfleet is mostly science/exploration, or that it can be argued that the US navy is way oversized, or that other US military services might have their own ships

There's also about 1.5 mill active members of the US military, which is only 0.5% of the total pop of the US, which is less than your estimate of 2%, but again as Starfleet is mostly science/exploration, they could get a much higher percentage of people joining as I'm sure there aren't that many people interested in the sciences/exploring joining the armed forces.
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# 15
02-18-2012, 02:32 AM
Starfleet is not based on war and not all starships can be grown on trees like the KDF, KDF ships are based on the basics and nothing more, prefeb units put together and tested then launched, with the feds, its all constructed from many pieces over a period of time. there was an estimated rebuilding time right at the end of the DS9 arc that mentioned that the feds would be back on their feet in about 2 decades, but the klingons would of taken longer and the romulans even longer because of the amount ship ships lost on the overall compared to the relative strength of each empire and how they conduted themselves.

the federation as i mentioned are not warmongers, they are diplomats, engineers and scientists, they are famed throughout the quadrant for being technically able by Dukat and Keevan, meaning they have the versatiliy to over come a problem and fix it better then the klingons and romulans.

the Klingons take longer most probably because of the sheer amount of ships lost and destroyed, they use strength in numbers to attack in order to survive better, but based on the fact the dominion were specifically going after klingon ships rather then starfleet in a fight, it seems more likely 2x more ships were destroyed then starfleet had.

the Romulans are not built on brute strength, they work in the shadows which lends to the idea they dont have anywhere near the strength the feds or KDF have in sheer numbers alone meaning it would take them just as long to rebuild because of this fact.

with all that written, because of this timeline and starfleet knew there was a war coming because of the diplomatic breakdown during the gorn homeworld invasion, i think starfleet ramped up starship production as they no longer have the ally they once had in the Klingons, if anything because of this strain and that of the 8472 incursion then the war, starfleet spent everything they had and the KDF in sheer numbers battered starfleet on the head, by now they may of had too many ship then they did officers which led to that dual citizenship thing.
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# 16
02-18-2012, 08:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor12345 View Post
I think you're on the right track but some of your numbers are off. Shouldn't the total population be just 45 billion if there is 150 member worlds with 300 million people each?

I also had a quick look for info on the US navy, as thats what Starfleet is based on. It currently has 285 "Deployable Battle Force Ships". Since the US conveniently has a population of ~300 million, which nicely matches your estimate which I think is pretty fair, Starfleet would have over 42,000 ships if they want to keep the same ratio of ships : people. Though this doesnt take into account the fact that those are "battle ships", and Starfleet is mostly science/exploration, or that it can be argued that the US navy is way oversized, or that other US military services might have their own ships

There's also about 1.5 mill active members of the US military, which is only 0.5% of the total pop of the US, which is less than your estimate of 2%, but again as Starfleet is mostly science/exploration, they could get a much higher percentage of people joining as I'm sure there aren't that many people interested in the sciences/exploring joining the armed forces.
That pretty much lines up with what Ron Moore said to.
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# 17
02-18-2012, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKeith2011
There would have to be at least that many front line vessels. Probably just as many 2nd and 3rd tier reserves pulled out of mothballs for interior security and general business.

Wouldn't be surprised if the total was considerably more than that really.

My question is how to they manage to train all those personnel at one academy?

I would think all the Federation founding worlds (at least) would have full academies with other key systems having lesser academies for the first 2 or so years of the basics before students transfer to one of the main academies.

Think along the same line as colleges. Its not uncommon for students to take basic requirements at a local college before transferring to a larger university for final specialized classes. This would explain why all the shows characters went there, they are the absolute cream of the crop.

Using that analogy, SFA Earth would be a Harvard/Yale etc equivalent. Other founding worlds would be major state colleges, Tennessee State or Oklahoma State for example. This would be where the general rank and file of Star Fleet would be educated. All excellent officers, but not quite as highly qualified as the guys who get into SFA Earth.

Other worlds would be local community colleges for very basic training. Anyone and everyone could start here and move up as they qualify.
In regards to Starfeet Academy, you are misunderstanding what type of school it is. Graduates of SFA are Ensigns. That's the absolutely lowest rank one could possible be and still be an officer. Ensigns are superior in rank to Starfleet cewman. From the movies and series we mostly see officers of Starfleet. But Officers are not the bulk of Starfleet. That would be the crewman. The grunts and non-commisioned officers that do most of the grunt work.

That means that Starfleet Academy is the equivalent to the present day Officer Candidate School (OCS) and 4 year university. You attend an OCS if you want to gain a commission. SFA does teach other courses to make a well rounded officers. And it's nice to see that Starfleet Officers aren't above getting their hands dirty.
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# 18
02-18-2012, 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
With Crews numbering from 1500 (Odyssey) to 35 (Defiant) that's somewhere between 240 Thousand and 10 Million + ships.
you see this is something that always confused me because i remember in a TNG episode where the doctor got stuck in that warp bubble type thing and people started disappearing she said that the enterprise had about 4000 crew i cant remember the exact number she said now.
now why in game do we end up with a Galaxy class that has 1/4th of that crew and then a supposed ship that is bigger with the same lack of crew i would have expected the Odyssey to have about 5000 people aboard

Been reading memory alpha and it is about 1000 crew it is just it has the potential to carry 15000 people should it need to and i suppose when you take into account the families and things of the crew you would come with a much larger number of people on the ship
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# 19
02-18-2012, 09:22 AM
Why does it have to be just Starfleet ships?

If there are 150 member worlds in the Federation, don't they also have their own ships they can add to the effort?
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# 20
02-18-2012, 09:56 AM
Other thing to consider are ground installations and Starbases. A fleet can't operate with a places to get repaired and resupplied.
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