Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 421
02-20-2012, 06:55 PM
I'm old school. I have TOS uniforms on my fed toon and crew and TOS uniforms on my Klink toon and crew. All the "Klingons" in my Klink crew are all aliens so I can make them look like the Klinks from the original series. I played this mission first on my Klink cuz he still has 6 levels to go. During the prophet cutscene, the first NPC to talk looks EXACTLY like my Klingon toon. Hairstyle, mustache, sash, and all. I'm watching it and thinking "Wow this is cool they have me talking to me. Then I see a scar on his cheek that I don't have and then I think "oooh is this a future me?" When he speaks I'm thinking ok this is my voice...very cool.. When I do the mission on my Fed toon I'm wondering what his voice will sound like cuz he's Vulcan....After a few seconds I'm thinking "hey that's my klingon toon again, no fair. I soon realize that It wasn't my Klink and everyone got the same TOS Klingon in their cutscene. I'm Still happy cuz at least I know my "alien" Kilingon is authentic lol.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 422
02-20-2012, 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
So . . . I'm sure this will bite me in the butt, but I'm curious. To those who say that they're an admiral, and shouldn't be running errands, and feel they should be able to just send down crew members to do these things. . . If you were to redesign the missions that you just went through, to tell the same story, but to stay in character with Admiral status. . . how would you do it?

To me, sitting in my chair on my ship, and just telling other people to do things, isn't particularly compelling gameplay. What would you have an Admiral do, in character, in this situation, that wouldn't be something like paperwork? What would an Admiral do, that would actually be fun?

Also, keep in mind that these missions have to work for anyone from Lieutenant to Admiral.

Seriously, I'm not trolling, I'm honestly just curious what you guys think would be better?


ETA: I will say, that from my perspective, it's rational that even an Admiral might be doing all of these things because of the chaos that was thrown into everything with the abandonment of DS9. Ditching DS9 and regrouping on Bajor is bound to be an organizational nightmare, and I felt that the missions were appropriate becuase everyone is needed, to do anything and everything they can to get back up and running again.
I'm going to reiterate what I said in another thread. I am not going to pretend it's trivial, because it's not. But I think it would really, really help the replay value for a lot of missions and give a better sense of immersion.

If we had the ability to become one of our Bridge Officers and thus "lead the Away team", a lot of these kinds of arguments would go away. We then become the character that our Captain or Admiral is sending to deal with the problem. This is one thing we are really hoping that the First Officer feature we were promised will provide us with.

Aside from the role-play element, it would also allow for situations like the Science-Only accolade on the Azura mission. We could become our Science officer to run the mission.

It's not going to happen anytime soon if ever, but it's a really good idea. I won't claim it, because others proposed it long, long ago. Please forgive me if I reiterate it from time to time

Lacking the tech to do that, however, and realizing that FE's gotta scale, I don't suppose there's much else you could do other than making the tasks DO assignments that are unlocked through gameplay. Which is not everyone's cup of tea, I grant you.

I would also repeat my earlier feedback about making the episode less linear. If I can pick and choose which objectives to complete along the way to completing the mission, I'm less likely to be herded into doing tasks that don't feel right to me. Also, replay value gets a big boost.

This is a long mission to sit through, with way more running around than there needs to be just to set up the next episode. I like most of the objectives despite how odd it is to have a VA playing errand boy, I just wish that I could save more of them for another replay with a different character and skip others entirely.

In some ways, it feels like a missed opportunity. I realize the Commendation system is a relatively new feature, but many of these objectives could have been slotted into a Commendation category and granted the appropriate CXP if the tech existed to do that.

Finally, to reiterate another idea from the past, it would be really, really good if the game had more hooks for "metadata" recognition. Apart from being able to tell a player character's faction and career specialization, missions don't really adjust for things like rank, gender, species, etc. The game can parrot back our rank in a dialog, but it doesn't otherwise react to it and it's not as far as I know anything that you can trigger off of.

No, again, not trivial and possibly not even possible. But certainly something that would greatly benefit the game over the long term.

Please realize -- Many of us waited a long, long time for this FE and so far aside from a few nice touches -- which I do appreciate, by the way -- we are not seeing a lot of groundbreaking gameplay just yet. Where is the cool tech that would make these kinds of arguments go away? I'm hoping that we'll see some more razzle-dazzle in the next few episodes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 423
02-20-2012, 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
The NPCs in the stateroom area salute you when you come up. More of that from Starfleet personnel as you walk around Hathon would make you feel more like the high ranking character most of us are too.
The Stateroom saluting design harkens back to the very first days of closed beta. It was originally a real ceremony. When you got promoted, you went to see Adm. Quinn and the you went to the Stateroom (with saluting personnel) to go through the promotion ceremony, and you were to received your new rank pips (costume piece) as a reward for the mission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Eh, I never noticed that Starfleet was ever all that big on saluting. Not in any of the series, ever. Doesn't bother me a bit.

Yes, there is a quasi-military hierarchy. But not a whole lot of silly rules like, "keep your hat on outside" or "stand at attention and salute when a superior officer comes in the room".

Frankly, as far as I am concerned, those kinds of rules only exist in the modern military to give superior officers A) a reason to feel superior, and B) an opportunity to power-trip/find fault in subordinates. They do not IMO promote true respect, encourage real discipline, or build effective morale, they only create an illusion of military discipline and an atmosphere where subordinates spend more time worrying about staying out of trouble than in doing their duty efficiently.

Yeah, save the saluting for formal ceremonies and keep it off the streets of Bajor and out of my ship's corridors, thank you very much.
Yes. This was the Starfleet way of command in The Original Series, and it's stayed taht way until the "present" (25th Century). But the doesn't mean that Captain and Admiral will't bring the hammer down when needed. In "The Trouble with Tribbles" and Trials and Tribble-lations" Kirk discplined his crew (and the DS9 crew) after the fight in the bar on K-7. And Janeway was in full Captain Mode when she busted Tom Paris from Lt JG back to Ensign when stole the Delta Flyer and violated orders.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 424
02-20-2012, 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Finally, to reiterate another idea from the past, it would be really, really good if the game had more hooks for "metadata" recognition. Apart from being able to tell a player character's faction and career specialization, missions don't really adjust for things like rank, gender, species, etc. The game can parrot back our rank in a dialog, but it doesn't otherwise react to it and it's not as far as I know anything that you can trigger off of.
Just to clarify... I know that the game does recognize what level we are and thus how difficult to make the mobs, what kind of gear we are allowed to use, what kind of drops we should be getting, etc.

I am only referring to the fact that mission objectives and mission dialog do not appear to have the hooks you would need to, say, present one set of objectives and dialog to a Lieutenant and a different set of objectives and dialog to an Admiral.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 425
02-20-2012, 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Just to clarify... I know that the game does recognize what level we are and thus how difficult to make the mobs, what kind of gear we are allowed to use, what kind of drops we should be getting, etc.

I am only referring to the fact that mission objectives and mission dialog do not appear to have the hooks you would need to, say, present one set of objectives and dialog to a Lieutenant and a different set of objectives and dialog to an Admiral.
I think this is a nice ideal, and has some potential. I don't know if we can do so with current tech, but imagine it's possible with some relatively minor programming work.

The hitch is, this method would require that we create multiple missions for each existing mission. Ideally, this sounds amazing. I could play through one way as an ensign, another as a Lieutenant, Commander, Captain, etc.

Unfortunately, that's 3-5 times the work, and is unlikely to occur.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 426
02-20-2012, 08:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
I think this is a nice ideal, and has some potential. I don't know if we can do so with current tech, but imagine it's possible with some relatively minor programming work.

The hitch is, this method would require that we create multiple missions for each existing mission. Ideally, this sounds amazing. I could play through one way as an ensign, another as a Lieutenant, Commander, Captain, etc.

Unfortunately, that's 3-5 times the work, and is unlikely to occur.
look at my post on page 42, goes a little in how it could work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 427
02-20-2012, 08:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
I think this is a nice ideal, and has some potential. I don't know if we can do so with current tech, but imagine it's possible with some relatively minor programming work.

The hitch is, this method would require that we create multiple missions for each existing mission. Ideally, this sounds amazing. I could play through one way as an ensign, another as a Lieutenant, Commander, Captain, etc.

Unfortunately, that's 3-5 times the work, and is unlikely to occur.
I get that. I think, on the other hand, that some kind of retooling as part of an initiave designed to encourage endgame replay would be nice.

A few missions REALLY incentivize endgame replay with their rewards, which are best in slot for what they do.

But I take "Of Bajor" as a clear indication that you guys want people playing missions more than once.

New wrinkles that aren't available on initial playthrough are one way of doing that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 428
02-20-2012, 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubispax View Post
I'm old school. I have TOS uniforms on my fed toon and crew and TOS uniforms on my Klink toon and crew. All the "Klingons" in my Klink crew are all aliens so I can make them look like the Klinks from the original series. I played this mission first on my Klink cuz he still has 6 levels to go. During the prophet cutscene, the first NPC to talk looks EXACTLY like my Klingon toon. Hairstyle, mustache, sash, and all. I'm watching it and thinking "Wow this is cool they have me talking to me. Then I see a scar on his cheek that I don't have and then I think "oooh is this a future me?" When he speaks I'm thinking ok this is my voice...very cool.. When I do the mission on my Fed toon I'm wondering what his voice will sound like cuz he's Vulcan....After a few seconds I'm thinking "hey that's my klingon toon again, no fair. I soon realize that It wasn't my Klink and everyone got the same TOS Klingon in their cutscene. I'm Still happy cuz at least I know my "alien" Kilingon is authentic lol.
The TOS Klingon is meant to be B'Vat from Past Imperfect

I thought it was good, I've played through it twice so far to try different missions. The one thing that I thought could be better was the cutscene showing the visual record of the invasion of Cardassia when you are talking to Lorris, That one seemed half done, the Federation ships were all 2409 ships (including an Odyssey class) and they just sat there looking at the Dominion ships, there was no action, also the Cardassian defenses (which themselves were way too light for the final battle) included standard satellite turrets, when they should have been Cardassian weapons platforms, I know they're in the game, why weren't they used here? The other cutscene I watched, of the treaty signing, was spot on perfect from the episode though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 429
02-20-2012, 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoNoir View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about. At all.

It has already been covered how "Chain of Command" and "Rank" are not synonymous. THE PC IS NOT IN THE ANDORIAN'S CHAIN OF COMMAND, NEITHER ABOVE NOR BELOW.

The Andorian captain answers to whoever sent him to that conference to be Starfleet's representative. The PC cannot countermand the Andorian's legal orders because the PC is not in the Andorian's chain of command. And the Andorian's orders clearly DID NOT include "commit Starfleet even if nobody else is willing to commit." If the PC tried, all the Andorian would have to do is call his boss, and then not only would his boss tell him to keep to his original orders, but the PC would be in a heap load of trouble too.

Just because you're an Admiral does not mean you have been authorized by Starfleet or the United Federation of Planets to make that decision. That authority was given to the Andorian Captain, NOT YOU, by somebody above both of you in the chain of command. If Starfleet wanted you to make that decision, they would've given it to you. But they didn't. They gave it to the Andorian. It does not matter that he is lower rank.

Look; There is a serious issue with how this conference goes from the get go if you factor in rank and here is the reason why:

Let's say you have a Captain and an Admiral sitting down to a Conference. The Conference is designed to pull together the military assets of the Alpha Quadrant to defeat the invasion of the Borg. Now... Let us look at this from the perspective of the Gorn KDF representative for just a moment shall we? He is going to be listening to this conversation and trying to determine rather or not he should be getting the KDF involved. He is FULLY aware that if Starfleet joins the fight and the KDF does not that they may be weakened and give the KDF the advantage. He is also fully aware that if the KDF joins the fight and Starfleet does not then they will be weakened and his enemies may easily take victory. Sooo... The Andorian Captain is in command of... A Ship... So if he commits then the Gorn knows he is committing a single ship and hopefully the rest of the fleet if he can trust Starfleet. If the Admiral commits then he knows Starfleet has committed an entire fleet of ships to the effort. Who do you think he is more interested in dealing with? Do you think he is going to take any of you seriously if your subordinate is mouthing off to you? In his culture that would be a good time for you to whip out your blade and teach him a lesson.


I do understand what you are TRYING to get at but it makes NO sense to send an Admiral and a Captain to such a conference and give them equal power, or worse give the Admiral less power, in the conversation. The way it should play out is that the Captain remains quiet unless his opinion is directly solicited and simply lets his superior officer make the call. You are BOTH there at the request of Starfleet Command, obviously, and as you are on the assignment together you are the ranking officer in the room. I would HOPE the reason HE is there is because he has particular insight into the battle (as if we don't... Only run over 200 STFs and countless RAs... but anyway) and you would want to ask him for this insight during the conference. It should not be YOU trying to convince HIM of anything however, it should be HIM trying to convince YOU of the proper course of action.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 430
02-20-2012, 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
I think this is a nice ideal, and has some potential. I don't know if we can do so with current tech, but imagine it's possible with some relatively minor programming work.

The hitch is, this method would require that we create multiple missions for each existing mission. Ideally, this sounds amazing. I could play through one way as an ensign, another as a Lieutenant, Commander, Captain, etc.

Unfortunately, that's 3-5 times the work, and is unlikely to occur.
The "Become your first officer" idea, break everyone down to Captain, or have just 2 mission types, one for top level and one for everyone else are probably the best ways to go.

As you say, and it is true, to make a different version for every rank that could be involved would be a HUGE work load... Not sure that is a good idea. It would just slow down content production to a serious crawl and I think we all know that ultimately would not be good for the health of the game even if it would be awesome to see. Maybe IF you suddenly got a lot more employees and had time and resources THEN you could consider that.
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