Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-26-2012, 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direphoenix View Post
I know if I had an enormously massive and obvious important military target floating over my planet I would definitely NOT want it positioned over any type of populated landmass. If it's going to be in geosynchronous orbit, I'd put it over the Pacific, so when some nefarious no-gooder decides to take out SB-1, the majority of the pieces fall into the ocean instead of wiping out the surface. I would guess, however, that it's placed over the Atlantic though, which I guess is unfortunate for whoever is living in that "Atlantis Project" thing, waiting for that giant space station to fall on top of them
I agree... The Pacific was my first choice too, but in terms of traveltime from Paris and SFC vs. most possible defensive coverage that makes very little sense.

UFP leadership is more important than SFC leadership seen from a military aspect, as SFC would technically as long as starfleet exists have successors for command positions (due to the chain of command), but UFP is not only leadership of earth, but the entire federation.
Since the federation is a democracy with a voting system (DS9:Homfront, the president mentions that he was elected into office), it would be significantly harder to replace an entire goverment.

Thats why my bet is on the Atlantic.

Edit:

Actually come to think of it: Placing it over the atlantic / pacific also explains why we have never been able to see ESD in any of the ground shots from earth...
1: Not really that big
2: Not orbiting any of the locations.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 22
02-26-2012, 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
On a semi related note, I know ESD is supposed to be in synchronous orbit. Does anyone know where it's synchronous over? like UP Fleet Yard is obviously over Utopia Planitia on Mars. Is ESD over San Francisco? Somewhere else?
I'm fairly certain that Spackdock is in orbit over Starfleet Command on Earth (near San Francisco). Although I can't find a hard canon reference to that. I must be remember something from one of the novels.
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# 23
02-26-2012, 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
I'm fairly certain that Spackdock is in orbit over Starfleet Command on Earth (near San Francisco). Although I can't find a hard canon reference to that. I must be remember something from one of the novels.
I think thats a natural assumption... I did that too untill I started looking at pictures...

Google ruined my imaginary world.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 24
02-27-2012, 12:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
Unless it's using some heavy-duty station-keeping (possibly non-Newtonian, given how gravity generators work in Star Trek), it's probably at a Lagrange point, most likely L4 or L5. I can look that up for ya on Tuesday.
I doubt that Spacedock is at any Earth/Month Lagrangian point. L2 which would be the closest one to the Earth is a lot closer to the Moon than the Earth. All of the movie and TV depictions of Spacedock has it fairly close to Earth. It's supposed to be easily visible from eh surface of the planet.

Another limit on the location of Spacedock is that it has to be within transporter distance of the surface of the Earth. The TOS series has the maximum range of the transporter as 40,000 kilometers. Geosynchronous order for Earth of 35,700 kilometers. Based on taht I would say it's a safe bet that ESD in Geosynchronous Orbit. That's well above the low obit atmospheric drag. Should be easy enough to keep it in place with just thrusters.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-27-2012, 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
*snip*

On a semi related note, I know ESD is supposed to be in synchronous orbit. Does anyone know where it's synchronous over? like UP Fleet Yard is obviously over Utopia Planitia on Mars. Is ESD over San Francisco? Somewhere else?
If I recall correctly, the old ESD model was closer to San Francisco on the earliest Sol system map. Which most took as the case when viewing Star Trek III, IV and V. U.S. player's, of course, took pride in this. While others used that to taunt international player's. It was an old topic. Suggestions were made that ESD should be moved. And dry docks established over a variety of continents. For example, San Francisco, Cardiff and Melbourne Orbital Shipyards.

Calm discussion (argument) that I recall in favor of a change, included that while San Francisco remains the home of Starfleet Headquarters, the Federation President (and by extension the Council Chambers) were located in Paris, France. Suggesting that perhaps the Federation should not appear too U.S. centric within context of STO?

When Sol system got overhauled and the current ESD model appeared, it was over the Atlantic. Roughly, half-way between North America and Europe? I speculate that fostering player community may have been more important than canon location. Although, halfway between Paris and San Francisco would really be where? New York, maybe? Make of that what you will.
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# 26
02-27-2012, 02:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
On a semi related note, I know ESD is supposed to be in synchronous orbit. Does anyone know where it's synchronous over? like UP Fleet Yard is obviously over Utopia Planitia on Mars. Is ESD over San Francisco? Somewhere else?
No real idea since any screenshots of ESD doesn't really show you which continent it is above, however it's likely that San Francisco Fleet Yards might actually be situated above San Francisco, if so ESD would probably be elsewhere in orbit.

Speaking of orbital yards, there's also the Luna Shipyards and McKinley Station that are missing currently.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 27
02-27-2012, 05:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direphoenix View Post
I know if I had an enormously massive and obvious important military target floating over my planet I would definitely NOT want it positioned over any type of populated landmass. If it's going to be in geosynchronous orbit, I'd put it over the Pacific, so when some nefarious no-gooder decides to take out SB-1, the majority of the pieces fall into the ocean instead of wiping out the surface.
Assuming that the sation - following a massive attack able to destroy it entirely - and further assuming that every piece of debris would -start- flying away directly towards earth - even then the debris probably would not go down in the pacific. I will leave the exact calculations to someone else!
In a geosynchronos orbit the station would rotate slower then the landmass below - both would rotate -west- around the planets core. While decending from high orbit it would keep its own velocity -west- but on a shorter/smaller circle. Therefore it would take less time for a full rotation (geosync. = 24 hours) an it would begin to travel -east- relative to the landmass.

The whole thing becomes void if we again take into account debris flying away at random after the expected massive explosion(s) following an attack on the station.
And it gets even more complicated if we expect objects of different size and aerodynamics/shapes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda View Post
I agree... The Pacific was my first choice too, but in terms of traveltime from Paris and SFC vs. most possible defensive coverage that makes very little sense.

UFP leadership is more important than SFC leadership seen from a military aspect, as SFC would technically as long as starfleet exists have successors for command positions (due to the chain of command), but UFP is not only leadership of earth, but the entire federation.
Since the federation is a democracy with a voting system (DS9:Homfront, the president mentions that he was elected into office), it would be significantly harder to replace an entire goverment.
Remembering BSG and thinking of the size of the UFP - shouldnt there be "backup plans" in case something of this kind happens? And: I assume the President of such a big entity would be rather representating the whole Federation and coordinate some form of senate which decides "the bigger picture" - I am sure the planets still have their own freedom in many ways.

And - forgot to quote, sorry - the seat of the President has always been Paris, not just since STO.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 28
02-27-2012, 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
lol I may be awesome, but I'm probably not that awesome. There are some limitations that would have to be addressed before we could pull something like this off.

On a semi related note, I know ESD is supposed to be in synchronous orbit. Does anyone know where it's synchronous over? like UP Fleet Yard is obviously over Utopia Planitia on Mars. Is ESD over San Francisco? Somewhere else?
It's over San Fransisco I would assume (the Star Trek 3 visual for Earth is so murky I can hardly even see landmasses). However, from the ground it would just look like any other satellite in orbit. Just a tiny light in the sky, barely brighter.

Also, to above discussion:
SFHQ: Alameida
SFA: The Presidio (right next door)
President's Office: Paris
Congress: Brussels (not all that far from Paris)
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-27-2012, 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi'a Meese
If I recall correctly, the old ESD model was closer to San Francisco on the earliest Sol system map. Which most took as the case when viewing Star Trek III, IV and V. U.S. player's, of course, took pride in this. While others used that to taunt international player's. It was an old topic. Suggestions were made that ESD should be moved. And dry docks established over a variety of continents. For example, San Francisco, Cardiff and Melbourne Orbital Shipyards.

Calm discussion (argument) that I recall in favor of a change, included that while San Francisco remains the home of Starfleet Headquarters, the Federation President (and by extension the Council Chambers) were located in Paris, France. Suggesting that perhaps the Federation should not appear too U.S. centric within context of STO?

When Sol system got overhauled and the current ESD model appeared, it was over the Atlantic. Roughly, half-way between North America and Europe? I speculate that fostering player community may have been more important than canon location. Although, halfway between Paris and San Francisco would really be where? New York, maybe? Make of that what you will.
I think the Federation President's office should be relocated from France to Beijing.

Y'Know... With Cryptic practically being in San Francisco... And their old publisher being based in France (albeit 300 miles from Paris)... I think it would be coy. And it would allow for the Fed President's office to possibly have a more diverse feel if they ever add it. I know several of our artists (Logan included) have a fascination with Southeast Asian architecture.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-27-2012, 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barihawk View Post
However, from the ground it would just look like any other satellite in orbit. Just a tiny light in the sky, barely brighter.
I agree. Let's throw some numbers on that. I'm guessing ESD is about 5 kilometers or so wide. At geo, 37,000km, it would subtend about .00014 radians, or about .5 arc-minutes (or 1/120th of a degree). To give an idea of the size, the bottom line on a eye chart has the letter about 1 arc minute apart.

Venus, the bright object in the west after sunset, can be as big as 1 arc minute. So ESD would be clearly visible, and pretty bright (after all it's white) - probably the fourth or fifth brightest object in the sky. It would be a sight to see in even a small telescope.
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