Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-28-2012, 02:23 AM
Okay didnt think of the lance. Thank you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-29-2012, 11:08 AM
yeah the phaser tactical consoles also improve he damage of the phaser lance. I was originally looking into going into antiproton, but being able to do 14k or more with the phaser lance is worth it.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 23
02-29-2012, 12:55 PM
Cyell, I suppose it is pointless to point out to you that with your Dreadnaught Build you are going to have the problem of having to be facing your opponent or at least be within 90 degree's of facing your opponent in order to get all 8 of your weapons firing simultaneously?

I ask because if it isn't pointless to point this out then you should know that without a full complement of RCS Accelerators it is going to be difficult for any cruiser to consistently be facing it's opponents with the frequency needed to pull what you want to be doing off. Add to the fact that if you go with a full complement of RCS Accelerators that you are going to have the drawback of not being able to utilize Armor Consoles, or Power Transfer Consoles or whatever else you may desire to be utilizing for your ship's defense or offensive capabilities. This could seriously hamper your ships capabilities.

In my opinion these drawbacks ultimately make the Dragon Cruiser Build superior to the build you designed Cyell. The only reason I think this way is because it is infinitely easier to broadside an opponent and get 7 out of the 8 weapons firing at the opponent, than it is to go head on against the opponent in a cruiser and hoping to get all 8 weapons firing. But that is just my opinion.
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# 24
02-29-2012, 03:19 PM
Yes, spinal lance is a phaser so you might as well optimize your weapon consoles and get phaser weapons. When you tihnk about it, the phaser proc is almost as good as the anitproton proc... esp when cannons and CRF is being used.

Wow, I got preempted multiple times.

In Cyrell's defence, there are pilots out there who can maneuver fairly well to get the bow facing the enemy, either by anticipation or Evasive Manuevers, etc. Multiple RCS accelerators aren't efficicent as they suffer from the law of diminshing returns after the first console... power transfer consoles only help when you are changing modes (attack/defense/engine), they do not significnatly improved the recovery of energy (i.e. beam weapons fire) as demonstrated here. For that, chaining EPtW would be more efficient.

For a lesser skilled/lazy pilot, like myself, the array version is easier.
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# 25
02-29-2012, 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
Cyell, I suppose it is pointless to point out to you that with your Dreadnaught Build you are going to have the problem of having to be facing your opponent or at least be within 90 degree's of facing your opponent in order to get all 8 of your weapons firing simultaneously?

I ask because if it isn't pointless to point this out then you should know that without a full complement of RCS Accelerators it is going to be difficult for any cruiser to consistently be facing it's opponents with the frequency needed to pull what you want to be doing off. Add to the fact that if you go with a full complement of RCS Accelerators that you are going to have the drawback of not being able to utilize Armor Consoles, or Power Transfer Consoles or whatever else you may desire to be utilizing for your ship's defense or offensive capabilities. This could seriously hamper your ships capabilities.

In my opinion these drawbacks ultimately make the Dragon Cruiser Build superior to the build you designed Cyell. The only reason I think this way is because it is infinitely easier to broadside an opponent and get 7 out of the 8 weapons firing at the opponent, than it is to go head on against the opponent in a cruiser and hoping to get all 8 weapons firing. But that is just my opinion.
Well it's 180 deg. The 90 deg is only for the torp/DBB, which if you wanted to replace either one for a 3th/4th cannon, you would have 180 deg firing arc on all 7/8 weapons. I mean, the build isn't set in stone, you can make changes to it as you see fit. And even with 3 or 4 cannons the dps is still slightly higher than beams. And currently I run 3 cannons + torp, and use TT instead of BOL for better survivability.

The RCS is useless on a dread as the base turn is so low that the RCS would do almost nothing for it.

So the problem with face time with an opponent... This is in fact a problem with the dread, however please think of it this way:

1) An enemy cruiser would want you in his 70 deg arc, and you want him to be in you 180 arc. Although technically it'll only be 90 deg since you'll only realistically see an opponent either on your left or right side of your 180 arc. However that is still 90 deg.

2) The damage out put is at least the same, if not slightly higher with cannons. But you do get higher number of procs because of CRF, which if you're lucky and disable engines, comes in very handy. In return it is much more difficult to pilot, which seems a decent trade off, so everyone has to decide what's right for them. I just personally prefer the higher dps, and am willing to put in the extra effort for face time.

3) Even if you run 7 or 8 beams, you will still have to get someone in your 45 deg arc at some point for the lance. If you don't then it is wasted dps, or you might as well get an assualt cruiser for more turn rate. So if you're going to have to do it anyway... might as well get the extra dps out of it... I don't know, does that make sense?

Now... am I saying the dragon is bad? No. Not at all. However it is pretty much just a standard beam boat, and I have one of those also, just on an assualt cruiser (see #3 above). So the thing that sets dragon's build apart is his BO skills, and chaining 4 em-powers; very creative use of them. However that trade dps/utility for survival, which really is just up to your tastes.

The last thing I'd like to note is that the beams do offer one very significant advantage over what I use, and that is the movement. With a beam boat you can stay on the move 100% of the time which give you higher defense rate; as opposed to my build with will force you to occasionally reverse to get a better shot. But that's just part of the deal of the lance as you will always need to do this at some point if you want to burn someone down quickly. But do note that this is an inherent bonus of beam boats, and not exclusive to the dragon.
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# 26
02-29-2012, 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyell
Well it's 180 deg. The 90 deg is only for the torp/DBB, which if you wanted to replace either one for a 3th/4th cannon, you would have 180 deg firing arc on all 7/8 weapons. I mean, the build isn't set in stone, you can make changes to it as you see fit. And even with 3 or 4 cannons the dps is still slightly higher than beams.
Okay so you are using Single Barreled Cannons to achieve a 180 Degree Firing Arc. My Mark X Phaser Beam Array does 168 DPS with a 2.5% chance to disable 1 Sub-system for 5 seconds. In addition it has a 250 Degree Firing Arc. I usually load a total of 7 of these types of weapons onto my Odyssey Cruiser, if not even higher level ones. So that comes to approximately 1176 DPS + 7 different 2.5% chances to disable a subsystem. Now looking at a similar Mark of Cannon and Turret, you will end up with approximately 1110 DPS if you include a Torpedo in the mix. In fact I don't think there is any way your set up actually can out DPS my set up in the long run.

And this is purely using Phasers, this doesn't even take into account Anti-Proton Weapons or anything of that sort.

Quote:
2) The damage out put is slightly higher with cannons, as well as higher proc rates. In return it is much more difficult to pilot, which seems a decent trade off, so everyone has to decide what's right for them. I just personally prefer the higher dps, and am willing to put in the extra effort for face time.
Actually I just debunked that point. The Damage Output may technically be higher on Cannons, but unless you are using nothing but Cannons both Fore and Aft (which is horribly unwise) you won't be seeing numbers high enough to out DPS a ship that is using 7 Beam Arrays due to the fact that you are also using the significantly lower damage of Turrets to offset your Firing Arc Restrictions.

Quote:
3) Even if you run 7 or 8 beams, you will still have to get someone in your 45 deg arc at some point for the lance.
I actually don't use a Galaxy X Dreadnought for my Dragon Build. Rather I use the Odyssey Class. Save for the fact that the Odyssey does not have a Lance, and some differences in the Bridge Officer Layout, almost everything else about the build is the same between the two ships. I can possibly acknowledge that your build may be more ideal for use in conjunction with the Beam Lance, but at the same time from the perspective of pure DPS based off nothing other than weapons that don't rely on the ships in built features (such as the Lance), it is usually easier to go the Beam Array route than it is the Cannon route unless you are an Escort.
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# 27
02-29-2012, 11:05 PM
My Ambassador Spock, have 4 DHC and 4 turrets, and with a bit of care, its deadly for anything. With it, you don't go to combat.... you must think to set it on goods positions. Of course dampening fields and aux to engine is also recommended (my odyssey, have 2 of each). The "klingon" reconversión of galaxy x is very funny. Don't forget the scrater volley.... is very usefull and you can it can be very useful on gateways and cubes to make damage even "out" of field of fire.


Thanks for the fun, sorry for my bad english.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-29-2012, 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daywalker.Hawk View Post
the tac cubs on elite uses an ivisble torpedo attack that deals about 300k dmg so if he fires it at you your gone not even an odyssey can survive this. only thing that helps is polarized hull then you can survive this but as you dont see the torp you never know when to activate it.
My Odyssey often survives that torpedo. Granted only on about 3 to 5% hull but as long as I heal fast and do not get hit while low I can survive.
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# 29
03-01-2012, 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberjac View Post
My Ambassador Spock, have 4 DHC and 4 turrets, and with a bit of care, its deadly for anything.
My entire argument in my previous post hinged on the assumption that the person I was quoting was using standard Single Barrel Cannons which have a 180 Degree Firing Arc and that he was not using Dual Cannons or Dual Heavy Cannons which both have 45 Degree Firing Arcs.

If the individual decides to use Dual Cannons or Dual Heavy Cannons, then at the expense of a significantly reduced Firing Arc, yes they most definitely will be able to out DPS a Dragon Cruiser. However ignoring that contingency then there is no chance save by means of using superior torpedo's than the Dragon Cruiser, that the Cannon wielding Cruiser is going to be able to out DPS a Dragon Cruiser.
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# 30
03-01-2012, 08:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
Okay so you are using Single Barreled Cannons to achieve a 180 Degree Firing Arc. My Mark X Phaser Beam Array does 168 DPS with a 2.5% chance to disable 1 Sub-system for 5 seconds. In addition it has a 250 Degree Firing Arc.
First of all, you do NOT get 250 deg arc with beams. With a beam boat you really only have 70 arc. Yes beams have 250, but the overlap of fore and aft only gives you that 70 deg where all you're weapon can fire, one on each side, meaning a total firing arc of 140 deg. As opposed to cannons, which have 180, which overlaps the entire 180 with the turrets. So 140 for beams, and 180 for cannons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
I usually load a total of 7 of these types of weapons onto my Odyssey Cruiser
Ok, stop right there. It doesn't what my cannon/turret dps is. I have 3 tac consoles vs the 2 in an ody. That's an extra 26% damage, and a lance which the ody doesn't have. So the beams on an ody would have to do 26%+ more dps than cannons, and that just isn't possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
1176 DPS + 7 different 2.5% chances to disable a subsystem. Now looking at a similar Mark of Cannon and Turret, you will end up with approximately 1110 DPS if you include a Torpedo in the mix. In fact I don't think there is any way your set up actually can out DPS my set up in the long run.

And this is purely using Phasers, this doesn't even take into account Anti-Proton Weapons or anything of that sort.
You know, the fact that you just add up the base numbers and say you proved me wrong really frustrates me, because now I have write a giant wall of text to explain why. Like you completely ignore the fact that the dread has 3 tac consoles vs the 2 in an ody. But let's assume that we're talking about dread in both cases, the dragon vs mine.

So here we go...

When I say more dps, I mean total dps, which means I take into consideration abilities as well. For the example I'm going to use I will use 3 cannons + 4 turrets setup because DBB + BOL alone does 5k dps, which would give me considerably more dmg than the dragon.

1) raw damage:
BFAW increases your dps by 25% with 1.25 shots per sec instead of 1/sec. CRF increases dps by 30%, with 5 shots per sec

in 30 seconds:
1176 dps x 1.25 (BFaW) x 10 sec + 1176 dps x 1.25 (BFaW) x .1 (EPtW) x 5 + 1176 dps x 20 sec = 38,955 total damage done

vs

1110 dps x 1.3 (CRF) x 10 sec + 27 (DEM3) x 50 shots + 1110 dps x 20 sec + 27 (DEM3) x 40 shots = 39,060 total damage done.

Note 1: I did not include APbeta because it is a damage resist debuff, which means it only affect hulls, and I cannot say how much time within a 30 sec window you would have fighting someone without shields. In fact, most of the time people will have their shields up the whole time until just before they get blown up. However I did include the EPtW effect for 5 sec.

Note 2: I'm also assuming pvp since in pve I can mount DHC, which is more base dps. And since only in pvp do I need to run singles, that is what I will assume.

Note 3: At best the 2 does the same amount of dps. However BFaW spreads out the damage on several different targets, where as the cannons focus down an opponent. And in pvp you really do want to focus someone down rather than shooting a couple of shots off and some random tank or healer who can regen their shields.

Note 4: The dragon does not use DEM as my build does so I did not include it in the calculations. If he did use it, then it would 39,819. However, he would trading survivability for it.

2) Procs:
in 30 sec:
1.25 x 10 + 1 x 20 = 32.5 chances to proc the phaser effect

vs

5 x 10 + 2 x 20 = 90 chances to proc the phaser effect

With the same damage, I get 3 times the number of chances to proc an effect, which pretty much translates to 3 times the number of procs. Even if I had less dps (which i don't) the procs more than makes up for it.

I also want to point out that I'm always trying to face forward, and the dragon always wants to face broadside. This mean I get a chance to use my torps more often, which increases my overall dps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
Actually I just debunked that point.
No you didn't. You just added up some base dps numbers. It's not how the game works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
The Damage Output may technically be higher on Cannons
Again, it's not higher. At best it is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
you won't be seeing numbers high enough to out DPS a ship that is using 7 Beam Arrays due to the fact that you are also using the significantly lower damage of Turrets to offset your Firing Arc Restrictions.
Same thing... the math is up there...


Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
I actually don't use a Galaxy X Dreadnought for my Dragon Build. Rather I use the Odyssey Class. Save for the fact that the Odyssey does not have a Lance, and some differences in the Bridge Officer Layout, almost everything else about the build is the same between the two ships. I can possibly acknowledge that your build may be more ideal for use in conjunction with the Beam Lance, but at the same time from the perspective of pure DPS based off nothing other than weapons that don't rely on the ships in built features (such as the Lance)
Not using a feature on a ship is like cutting off your own leg, which i guess that guy in Saw was willing to do. Which begs the question do you even own a dread? Because if you don't even have one, why are you arguing about how bad my dread setup is?

And on a side note, my build is always trying to face forward, and never losses out on dps when I shoot the lance. As opposed to the dragon, which would lose about 1/2 its dps to shoot the lance. And like I said before, if you dont want the lance, use an assualt cruiser or the excelsior.

As I have said before, the ody only has 2 tac consoles, so there is no way it can out perform the dread in dps. Which makes me wonder why you bothered to post those base numbers anyway. I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't quite understand all the mechanics in the game. The ody is a tank/healer/support. You're not comparing apples to apples here, you're comparing apples to a dead cow.

And I don't "rely" on the lance. It is there to provide extra dps, and I use it as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
it is usually easier to go the Beam Array route than it is the Cannon route unless you are an Escort.
Yes, easier to use arrays. Where cannons take significantly more effort (and sometimes skill) for a marginal gain. But for anyone who wants that slight gain, and is willing to put in the effort, can do so. If you want to be lazy, go for it. I get lazy often and just run out in my assualt cruiser with beams. But when I'm in the mood to play the dread, I burn people down pretty quick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
My entire argument in my previous post hinged on the assumption that the person I was quoting was using standard Single Barrel Cannons which have a 180 Degree Firing Arc and that he was not using Dual Cannons or Dual Heavy Cannons which both have 45 Degree Firing Arcs.

If the individual decides to use Dual Cannons or Dual Heavy Cannons, then at the expense of a significantly reduced Firing Arc, yes they most definitely will be able to out DPS a Dragon Cruiser. However ignoring that contingency then there is no chance save by means of using superior torpedo's than the Dragon Cruiser, that the Cannon wielding Cruiser is going to be able to out DPS a Dragon Cruiser.
In pve the DHC can get face time on target near 100% of the time. And if YOU can't get 100% face time, then it is you, and/or your lack of skill with the dread; and not the ship itself. So in pve the DHC will out dps the dragon. In pvp, well I wrote a wall of text to explain that one.

Lastly, why are you so adament about someone elses build? You make sound as if you're the original author of the dragon build and my build has offended you in some way. WTF?
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