Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
03-07-2012, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by jdb2008 View Post
Also a very big reason why people don't talk. With the UI designed the way it is, and the fact that we have to manuver the ship in a 3-D volume, we can't really stop to respond to every single chat, not when there are regeneration probes out there healing the larger Borg ships.
I usually approach this problem by implementing a "General Orders" system but this only works with people you know obviously. I don't use voice chat ever so I do this: -

4 teammates are pre-briefed and familiar with basic ship to ship calls. We RP by communicating "USS Arizona proceeding to phase line Alpha" etc, all based on a variety of real and fictional ship to ship or unit to unit hails.

In team missions, taskgroup members do not chat but concentrate on flying.

Taskgroup commander types 'general instructions' for the other 4 Captains to follow, such as:

"Battle line vs designated target, priority vs small craft"
"Execute Attack Pattern Tango"
"RSV assume wild weasel tactics; USS Vigilant close to scan objective +5 seconds delay"
"Engineering support requested on USS Arizona"

With a good 'one person talk, the rest execute on own initiative' general orders system, text chat can be effective. All taskgroup members need to do is really, do their own thing, coordinate with fellow wingmen, and occasionally glance at the text box for strategic updates.

Of course, task force commander either needs to have good battle management skills to fly, spam abilities and type fast during the few seconds' gap between activating combat skills. Or even better, get everyone on TS listening mode and give instructions verbally.

But text chat is really no disadvantage if the group knows how to listen and follow (competent) instructions, and maybe that's why PUGs are not as effective as they can be - people don't bother to listen to advice but do their own thing including utterly worthless things such as AFKing.

And if people don't wish to communicate, that's beyond our control really. We aren't going to actually drive to someone's house and bash the actual players over the head with a frying pan, are we? :3

Best we can do - stick to established teams and lead by example using sound C3I practices. A band of raw recruits are not what you want for a sensitive RL mission anyway.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
03-07-2012, 08:31 PM
Some things to consider...

They may not speak/read/write English (I dare say far to many native English speakers can't read or write it worth a crap, anyway). More often used as a cheap excuse than really happening, but you can't be sure.

Also consider the number of kiddies who seem to only be able to communicate in leetard and you'd probably be grateful for their silence.

Next: As an old WW2OL player (pity me), I can tell you that trying to type during heavy combat is tricky, at best, especially in a game where opening a chat line locks out your controls (otherwise it would be total chaos) until you hit "enter."

Next: Factor in that I would guess that 99% of your female captains have male players, and for whatever reason despite knowing this they might be reluctant to use voice chat because of this. So that writes off a good chunk right there.

Next: Add in the number of abrasive leetards who do nothing but insult their own teams for not being as "leet" as them and again, you'll be glad they're too cowardly to use voice chat.

Next: Too many abbreviations and code phrases make tactical coordination with those who have not memorized every last one of them difficult. Try doing everything longhand, spelling out "Hazard Emitters" every time, and you'll see why this can pose problems.

Next: Most of this game revolves around solo play, as most MMOs do (see the irony there?). STO gives us bridge officers to fill that gap of feeling like being part of a team, so as to make solo play not feel too lonely. It is not until you get into the higher levels that people first start even trying Fleet Actions or STFs. And this creates it's own dynamic of problems:

There is a self-perpetuating loop where Fleet Actions & STF are run by top level players using all the best gear. The main reason for this is that it is expected that players not even attempt these missions until they've reached top level and have all the best gear. You are thusly crapped upon if you dare be the new person in the group who hasn't already maxed out everything and memorized all the tricks because all the leetards say that you can't pull your weight and that they sure as heck aren't going to help pick up the slack to help a newer player because they were born leet, were never noobs, and did this mission a hundred times before they were even born.

Go ahead and laugh: I promise that you've either met this person already (most likely several times), or you are that person and should do the world a favor by proving your awesomeness via taking up unarmed shark hunting for a hobby (while wearing steak-suits).

This discourages cooperation on a fundamental level, a crack in the very foundation of team play that eventually cascades into complete silence. No one talks because no one dares to talk, because saying anything is just baiting leetard trolls to open up on. So why bother? Just keep soloing until you've reached max everything before ever attempting any kind of team play and hopefully avoid the noob bashing.

In the end, this is not STO's problem, or Cryptic's problem. It's humanity's problem, just another trivial side effect the internet bringing us all together and then driving us all apart.

Addenum: And while WW2OL is a clunky, bug-ridden mess of 1980s graphics filled with more cheaters & exploiters than Wall Street, it might be worth checking out because you will learn tactics & teamwork there, real fast. Their community reverses the above behavior - noobs are cherished for their willingness to learn new things and follow orders, while leetard lonewolves are scorned for like of teamwork. You may find it refreshing. You'll also learn to type really, really fast.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
03-07-2012, 08:40 PM
RE: Newbie bashing

It might be the issue that the missions and the rewards associated with said missions are desired by individual players and thus raises expectations of teamwork. Even in normal missions played as a team, the right amount of task complexity and implied urgency from mission briefings, coupled with the lure of unique rewards at the end, will make people snap at each other.

This, if taken in context, is A Good Thing because eventually a PUG player after a bad mission experience would realize he or she is "below spec" for a given task and seek more knowledge to conquer said mission with, especially if it involves something 'Elite' in nature.

They will eventually form teams and join fleets to learn how to conquer the tasks that scared them at first...

And a few weeks later go bash some 'inadequate' PUG team they met on a mission they really wanted to do.

It's an interesting recurring cycle

Thus in my honest opinion, airing one's views on the lack of communication is completely fine, but I would not engage in any personal attacks or unnecessary hostility against them since... we were all newbies once.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
03-07-2012, 08:48 PM
Communication - easy problem for cryptic to fix... add more low level content that requires teamwork... srsly... If players leveled communicating there is no problems cause they know how at stf level.

There should be a preliminary mission before STFs are avalible (or 4) 2 space 2 ground, each would require 5 ppl to talk to eachother, if the mission isnt passed simply enough NO STF FOR U!

Mission 1 could just be a series of consols, 5 you have to hit at the same time.

Mission 2, a target that requires u to fire on multiple targets to kill main target, Say 5 rooms, 1 main room with a shielded enemy, 4 players go into each other room and shoot at a interlink distribution node, as long as the nodes say under 80% HP the Main target in center wont be invincible,
In these missions, no death penalty and just basic combat scenarios, so the NPCs wont be fireing back. But it requires teamwork+communication to compleate,

a space mission set up like cure space, where Theres 3 bays each send out BOPS to destroy Center target, 1 person has to defend while others destroy bays,
Time limit of 30 minutes for all the scenarios, if it isnt met the mission is failed and stfs remain locked, (This would only be required for ppl who have never done an elite stf already and it only has to be done 1nce on the account) One scenario would have to be compleated to gain access to the stfs then maybe 5 normal stfs compleated to unlock the elite version (Account wide)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
03-07-2012, 08:55 PM
Paring down the learning curve for STF? Progression to actual STF based on merit and not just levels? I'm all for that.

This is totally true but most people won't realize it and 'try for the sake of it'. No personal liability or consequences on the Internet, after all.

Having 'training' STFs to do would definitely help. Even better if there are improved low level content geared for advanced teamplay - right now the Deep Space Encounters really should be reworked for higher difficulty because they are redunant.. and ripe for replacement with truly deadly and spectacular proper fleet engagements.

If the Devs are even listening of course.

But to be fair there is low level teamplay content. Set difficulty to Elite and do non-stop accolade runs through campaign missions with 3-4 others.

The problem is that no one is obliged to see what a Battle of Endor scale battle is like at Lieutenant level, because on normal, they can fly all the way up to Vice Admiral level in no time. Instant short term gratification is always more lucrative than the path of honest, hard work and serious learning.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
03-07-2012, 09:01 PM
Yea in STO I can level up to VA in 3 days without ever looking at my chat box or inviting anyone to a team. More team content is needed, i liked that glitch that made the undine dreadnought in that lt mission very hard, to the point u needed 3 players to kill it.
Right now the learning curve for pugs is more or less, 60% real bad, 30% fair, 5% Good, 2% Great, 3% elite, So u can see that The learning curve is more or less a cliff, Real high then quick drop
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
03-08-2012, 01:42 AM
Well, after reading these replies, we need target markers added to the UI. Not just simple icon markers like skull, X, square, etc, er also need custom text target markers. Put a "stop DPS at 10% health" marker up. This would clear up a lot of confusion and cut down on typing for all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 88
03-08-2012, 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by jdb2008 View Post
Well, after reading these replies, we need target markers added to the UI. Not just simple icon markers like skull, X, square, etc, er also need custom text target markers. Put a "stop DPS at 10% health" marker up. This would clear up a lot of confusion and cut down on typing for all.
Target designator function? Bring it. Would be awesomely useful for C3.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 89
03-08-2012, 01:47 AM
Because the chat window is broken half the time. Random errors like "Cannot find instance channel" or something similar randomly happens.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 90
03-08-2012, 03:51 AM
Many obviously just want the rewards and don't want to play in a team.

It is a fault of the queuing pug but the queue needs to be there.

There is one solution no one will probably do. Merge fleets. 4-5 good fleets kicking players from their roster who never even chat, putting all the daily STF players on one roster.

Who is up for it? No one because it would be a crazy process. But to do it would be to end up with a roster of STF players who never ever have to pug.

Fleets with 10 players who never log off can do this but we ain't all jobless or without kids. My fleet for example is mostly made up of professionals and a lot of full-time fathers but when the players are on they play STF. We just need about 50 more of those players to cover any hour of the day.

Getting those players is hard. I would rather merge with a fleet and bring on their best STF players. Problem there is so many players think their fleet is special, when really they are just a forum to bring fleets together. Some are special, but very few, very few have a decent site or much planning in their future. Such fleets need to consider disbanding and strengthening fleets dedicated to STF play, if they are keen in STF play themselves.

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