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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
03-12-2012, 02:44 PM
I was always (since game launch) under the impression ALL identical consoles stacked gave diminishing returns.
You mean tactical consoles don't? or at least didn't before?
I could swear it was about a 30% reduction in effectiveness when stacking identical consoles, regardless of type.
Every discussion thread I've ever seen, since it's been discussed frequently over the past 2 years, have come to this same conclusion.
An earlier post in this thread has a link from a Dev that also indicates this...
So...IMO, if only Tac consoles did not have diminishing returns before and now they do, kinda sounds like a fix, not a bug.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
03-12-2012, 03:14 PM
EDIT: Somehow I posted this in the wrong thread... Sorry.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
03-12-2012, 03:27 PM
Warhead yields still stack, is that correct? I have 3 equipped on my torp bop.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
03-12-2012, 03:35 PM
So the quantum chambe stack is the only one broke? Did you submit a ticket?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
03-12-2012, 09:44 PM
Fixed in the next patch

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho....php?p=4089783

"Resolved an issues that was causing players to only get one buff when slotting multiple torpedo console mods of the same type."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
03-13-2012, 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i get the impression because i know the trek science behind how phasers work. with arrays, the longer they are, the more individual emitters they have. each emitter holds its own charge, and the more emitters that are used in a beam discharge, the more powerful the beam can be. thats that moving energy effect you see in the shows along the array, each emitter's energy is being gathered at the firing point. the large dorsal array on a galaxy class has 200 emitters
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser_array
This doesn't mention anything about energy moving along the array would make it more powerful. It just says:
"During the firing sequence of some shipmounted arrays, phaser energies would travel along the emitter strip and converge at the best position for targeting. "
Which makes sense. Phaser banks (TOS era) have a reduced firing arc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
pulse phasers are impressive for single emitter weapons, that onion effect proboly helps with the borg especially. i figure a sustained burst of about 10 shots from all 4 cannons can put out about as much energy as a galaxy class's best shot. something almost never seen in the shows, except maybe in Q who. and it fired 3 of its best shots in the time it would take the defiant to fire 10 pulses in that instance.
It's been shown several times that the Defiant could take out a small craft like the Jem'Hadar or Bird of Prey in one burst (impossible to say whether the shields were up or not), while ships with arrays had to eat through the shields of the same sized craft.

If the "onion" effect is enough to power through the Borg's shielding technology, it's going to power through the shields of any ship. The rapid hits to the shields are designed to reduced dissipation across the shield, which increases penetration and bleedthrough.

Bleedthrough happens all the time in Star Trek space battles. It's why ships still take damage, even though they have their shields up.

The energy output may not be as high as an array (can't find this info), but the technology is superior to the array, just like the array is superior to the banks. But, obviously, it wouldn't be appropriate to put pulse cannons on every ship. Larger ships lack maneuverability, which is pretty much a requirement for a weapon that can only fire at what's directly in front of it.

They were even considering putting pulse cannons on the Enterprise-E in the first draft of the First Contact movie script. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser_cannon

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
really, thinking the defiant is so powerful is silly. you couldn't even fit the weapons systems of larger ships on the defiant. most large ships proboly have more of their volume taken up with weapons then the defiant HAS volume. the defiant's warp core is large for its size, but its likely just the warp core from a saber class, a ship 4 times the defiant's volume. you cant make current technology smaller and keep it just as powerful. any advances that allow for miniaturization could then be applied to the full sized weapons and tech too.

the pulse phasers are a compromise, a way for it to deal more damage then a ship it's size should be able too with the space allotted. the draw back is the apparent high amount of replacement parts and maintenance it needs, and the fireing arc. luckily its maneuverable enough to not be a major drawback. big arrays can throw their best shots off in nearly every direction, firing arc only limited by its own hull being in the way. their large size also allows for more damage absorbing, the defiant's ablative armor gives it more survivability then a ship its size should have, but its still not going to tank like a large cruiser.
The Defiant-class ships are combat ships. They aren't designed for exploration. They are meant to be sent in to kill stuff.

The ship was designed to take on the Borg. The Federation's most overwhelming foe. If a ship of the Defiant's size was meant to take on a ship that was several times larger than a Galaxy-class ship, I don't see how you could argue that the ship wasn't powerful to begin with.

If the article I posted above regarding arrays is correct, then you wouldn't need to have 200 emitters on a Defiant-class ship because of the size difference.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
03-13-2012, 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser_array
This doesn't mention anything about energy moving along the array would make it more powerful.
lol, second paragraph does "During the firing sequence of some shipmounted arrays, phaser energies would travel along the emitter strip and converge at the best position for targeting. (Star Trek: The Next Generation)"

also you see it happen on screen. memory alpha only has observed information on it, the lack of information on it doesn't mean im wrong. with the lack of canon information, i turned to the technical manual and read what it says. a simple version of the conclusion i reached is what i posted last post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
It's been shown several times that the Defiant could take out a small craft like the Jem'Hadar or Bird of Prey in one burst (impossible to say whether the shields were up or not), while ships with arrays had to eat through the shields of the same sized craft.
in my first post in this debate i gave examples of other ships killing the same ships the defiant had killed, only they were killing them more easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
If the "onion" effect is enough to power through the Borg's shielding technology, it's going to power through the shields of any ship. The rapid hits to the shields are designed to reduced dissipation across the shield, which increases penetration and bleedthrough.

Bleedthrough happens all the time in Star Trek space battles. It's why ships still take damage, even though they have their shields up.
sure, no argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
The energy output may not be as high as an array (can't find this info), but the technology is superior to the array, just like the array is superior to the banks. But, obviously, it wouldn't be appropriate to put pulse cannons on every ship. Larger ships lack maneuverability, which is pretty much a requirement for a weapon that can only fire at what's directly in front of it.

They were even considering putting pulse cannons on the Enterprise-E in the first draft of the First Contact movie script. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser_cannon
a pulse cannon emitter is surely superior to a phaser array emitter, but they do 2 different things. array emitters work together in the arrays, there can be 10 to 200 of them depending on the array size. cannon emitters are single gun barrels basically, they better emit more energy then an array emitter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shook-Yang
The Defiant-class ships are combat ships. They aren't designed for exploration. They are meant to be sent in to kill stuff.

The ship was designed to take on the Borg. The Federation's most overwhelming foe. If a ship of the Defiant's size was meant to take on a ship that was several times larger than a Galaxy-class ship, I don't see how you could argue that the ship wasn't powerful to begin with.

If the article I posted above regarding arrays is correct, then you wouldn't need to have 200 emitters on a Defiant-class ship because of the size difference.
the defiant was not designed to solo a cube, and that's what your implying. the strategy behind this 'fight the borg' thing is to throw 100 defiant at a cube rater then 50 large expensive general purpose ships. the result would be about the same firepower at half the cost in resources and manpower.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
03-13-2012, 06:45 PM
I'd just like to add that it seems that Tactical Consoles add damage to your BASE weapon's damage before any skills are applied or any modifiers apply.

This will cause the actual numbers you see on your weapons damage increases to not quite match the +26% that you might expect.

In fact the actual increase is around 7.5%, after my skills and all are applied, for the first console.

However, I guess it does add the full 26% to base weapon damage... I don't care to do all that math tbh.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
03-13-2012, 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
lol, second paragraph does "During the firing sequence of some shipmounted arrays, phaser energies would travel along the emitter strip and converge at the best position for targeting. (Star Trek: The Next Generation)"

also you see it happen on screen. memory alpha only has observed information on it, the lack of information on it doesn't mean im wrong. with the lack of canon information, i turned to the technical manual and read what it says. a simple version of the conclusion i reached is what i posted last post.



in my first post in this debate i gave examples of other ships killing the same ships the defiant had killed, only they were killing them more easily.



sure, no argument.



a pulse cannon emitter is surely superior to a phaser array emitter, but they do 2 different things. array emitters work together in the arrays, there can be 10 to 200 of them depending on the array size. cannon emitters are single gun barrels basically, they better emit more energy then an array emitter.



the defiant was not designed to solo a cube, and that's what your implying. the strategy behind this 'fight the borg' thing is to throw 100 defiant at a cube rater then 50 large expensive general purpose ships. the result would be about the same firepower at half the cost in resources and manpower.
He doesn't appear to be reading everything you say (what I mean by that, is remembering everything you have said previously). If you comprehend everything you say in all your rebuttals, it's very clear - you are correct. Include the much more massive warp cores and power generation potential...large shield generators etc in Star Trek, massive ships are *always* more powerful than smaller ships. However in an MMO, if large cruisers were really as strong as they are meant to be, it would be very imbalanced. Just look at the kind of beating the cruisers take in every Star Trek episode that exists, and when they can finally fight back, they finish off the smaller ships rather quickly.

The only time I recall a BOP being any near a threat to a modern cruiser is in Star Trek: Generations *after* they had discovered their shield frequency and bypassed them all together. Regardless of the age of their BOP, what one of the Duras sisters said holds very true "They are a Galaxy-Class starship we are no match for them." No escort class ship in Star Trek has EVER killed a large, modern cruiser (on its own) in less than 3 seconds, not even the Duras sisters when they could completely bypass their shields! For sake of balance in an MMO however, some things just can't follow canon 100%
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
03-13-2012, 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephihsto View Post
He doesn't appear to be reading everything you say (what I mean by that, is remembering everything you have said previously). If you comprehend everything you say in all your rebuttals, it's very clear - you are correct. Include the much more massive warp cores and power generation potential...large shield generators etc in Star Trek, massive ships are *always* more powerful than smaller ships. However in an MMO, if large cruisers were really as strong as they are meant to be, it would be very imbalanced. Just look at the kind of beating the cruisers take in every Star Trek episode that exists, and when they can finally fight back, they finish off the smaller ships rather quickly.

The only time I recall a BOP being any near a threat to a modern cruiser is in Star Trek: Generations *after* they had discovered their shield frequency and bypassed them all together. Regardless of the age of their BOP, what one of the Duras sisters said holds very true "They are a Galaxy-Class starship we are no match for them." No escort class ship in Star Trek has EVER killed a large, modern cruiser (on its own) in less than 3 seconds, not even the Duras sisters when they could completely bypass their shields! For sake of balance in an MMO however, some things just can't follow canon 100%
pretty much. after a wile these arguments loops and my opponents repeat arguments they already made. if i disprove them again i'm just caught in the loop, so i just tell them to refer back to the last time you tried that argument.

this discussion was about canon and not really game related, things do have to work differently for the game to be balanced. i just cant resist proving my perception of the canon as correct, and the more people i can convince the better! especially the defiant and sovereign fan boys, they really hate it if start giving proof that their favorite ships arent the best little mary sues in the galaxy.

generations railroaded the D hard. that single full array discharge it fired should have been more then enough to destroy a tiny bop.
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